HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2020, 5:07 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 9,871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
How about this area? Moving west along Eglinton and up Weston Rd., Mount Dennis and Weston are a bit further removed. These are struggling communities sometimes referred to as Toronto's "rust belt. One of the largest Black communities in Canada, with a lot of Caribbean and African businesses. To me, it's obviously very Toronto but with a bit of a rust belt meets the outer boroughs feel.

Weston has been around since the mid-19th century - it's very much urban, just with some unfortunate suburban-style infill built in the last 50 years.

Forest Hill meanwhile isn't so much what I'd call a hybrid as it is a pre-war suburb. That's just what an upper class suburb looked like in the early 1900s.

What I would describe as urban-suburban hybrids are the sort of neighbourhoods that were being built in Toronto in the 40s and 50s. Canada in general was a bit later to the suburban game than the US was, so even well into the 50s we were still building neighbourhoods that were a confused sort of mix between the pre and post-war typologies.

Neighbourhoods like the one I grew up in in North York are a good example of those which include both urban and suburban design elements:



Commercial high streets are largley urban format, but also feature some primitive strip malls with small parking lots and apartments above:
https://goo.gl/maps/fqWRisvq2gnyyMz88
https://goo.gl/maps/duchA1UXw5VcS7Ta6
https://goo.gl/maps/MHWNjPreovGXZhZt6

Residential streets are on a grid, but were built up with low-ish density bungalows and typically only have a sidewalk on one side of the street. In recent years these formerly working-class neighbourhoods have become desirable though and have seen a lot of the modest old brick bungalows replaced with McMansions:
https://goo.gl/maps/3EcuKdqc2PNufF7h6
https://goo.gl/maps/g3BWHeSBJL2yEtT56
https://goo.gl/maps/uXnnf875S9XRgREZ6

There are also denser blocks of low-rise apartments mixed in:
https://goo.gl/maps/mHUoSWN9wz5V3Qqe6
https://goo.gl/maps/ythqeMWuc8nFpzvv6

Later 60s-80s high-rise additions that help to add density and contribute to a diversity of housing options:
https://goo.gl/maps/YSntsHBXmpvev9bb7
https://goo.gl/maps/yhtP864yY28BFav17

Densities tend to be in the 4,000-6,000/sqkm range, enough to support local walkable retail and a mix of uses while still being quiet. Meanwhile it's accessible with bus & subway service but also very accommodating to the car with driveways & parkings lots aplenty - it's the kind of place where one can live either an urban or a suburban lifestyle, or a mix of the two.
__________________

Last edited by MonkeyRonin; Jan 14, 2020 at 5:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2020, 4:47 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
That area, Lawrence Manor/Ledbury Park, is the heart of Toronto's Orthodox Jewish community and has a good deal of walkability.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2020, 5:47 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
The City of Toronto splits the Bathurst-Lawrence area into two sections: Bedford Park-Nortown (east of Bathurst) and Englemount-Lawrence (west of Bathurst).

Bedford Park-Nortown

Detached house 56%
Apartment <5 stories 15%
Apartment 5+ stories 23%

Median household income $116,672
Median family income $178,300
Per capita income $123,077

Drive to work 62%
Public transit to work 25%

Englemount-Lawrence

Detached house 23%
Apartment <5 stories 31%
Apartment 5+ stories 37%

Median household income $58,003
Median family income $75,672
Per capita income $48,134

Drive to work 44%
Public transit to work 44%


Englemount-Lawrence includes the Lawrence Heights public housing project and has more apartments, while Bedford Park-Nortown is wealthier and SFH-dominated. Bathurst is sort of the western boundary of the high income sector north of downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2020, 5:53 PM
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 5,157
One of the things that being an Airbnb host taught me was that there is a variety in the meaning of "suburb" in English between American English and Australian English (and possibly other Commonwealth countries).

Australians call pretty much anything outside of the central city skyscraper zone the "suburbs" regardless of how urban it seems to American eyes.
__________________
[SIZE="1"]I like travel and photography - check out my [URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericmathiasen/"]Flickr page[/URL].
CURRENT GEAR: Nikon Z6, Nikon Z 14-30mm f4 S, Nikon Z 24-70mm f/4 S, Nikon 50mm f1.4G
STOLEN GEAR: (during riots of 5/30/2020) Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm F2.8G, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D
[/SIZE]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2020, 7:51 PM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 9,871
North York Centre is probably a good example of this as well, albeit in a different format.

The central corridor is incredibly dense (adjacent census tracts average about 40,000/sqkm), very vibrant with a high density of retail, and is transit-oriented, but also set up in an obviously car-friendly arrangement: (wide streets, curb cuts, etc)

https://goo.gl/maps/8QJVRRTBBFFaoLEk7
https://goo.gl/maps/na7QgBafkPHMEQro9
https://goo.gl/maps/Nj2wwBxZofWj73sQ7


But it very quickly gives way to more typical inner suburban SFH streets: (gridded, at least)

https://goo.gl/maps/HX3HyYybzifBVtEr6
https://goo.gl/maps/wytM6HSdyfk46qyRA
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:08 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Density of Bathurst-Lawrence area: 13,181 per sq. mile

Density of Willowdale electoral district (North York Centre): 15,631 per sq. mile
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:42 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
In North York Centre (Willowdale), 61% live in 5+ storey apartments and 25% in detached houses. 46% drive to work, 42% use public transit.

It's pretty much completely postwar (built up in the 1940s/1950s) but a "downtown" has emerged. I suppose it resembles Silver Spring, Maryland in that sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 10:09 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
In North York Centre (Willowdale), 61% live in 5+ storey apartments and 25% in detached houses. 46% drive to work, 42% use public transit.

It's pretty much completely postwar (built up in the 1940s/1950s) but a "downtown" has emerged. I suppose it resembles Silver Spring, Maryland in that sense.
Yeah, I think Silver Spring, or maybe Wilson Blvd. in Arlington, would be its closest U.S. analogue. North York is a bit newer and more redeveloped, but they're similar, with the Metro stop generating massive corridor TOD, surrounded by a postwar suburban millieu. And that's pretty impressive transit ridership considering the location.

NY TOD centers are in historic cores that got enveloped by postwar expansion. Places like White Plains, Stamford, New Rochelle feel rather different (though maybe a hint of similarity with Bethesda).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 2:31 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
North York is a fairly dense "urban suburbia." It was a semi-autonomous entity when it was built up, but part of Toronto.

The evidence of the difference is the older areas of 905 - Port Credit, south Oakville, Markham side of Thornhill, Old Richmond Hill etc. - they feel more like American suburbs in their typology.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 10:02 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
What I would describe as urban-suburban hybrids are the sort of neighbourhoods that were being built in Toronto in the 40s and 50s. Canada in general was a bit later to the suburban game than the US was, so even well into the 50s we were still building neighbourhoods that were a confused sort of mix between the pre and post-war typologies.
Montreal even more so.

Montreal Island has more of a "Swiss cheese" map of municipalities. It had the pattern of exclusive suburbs incorporating: Westmount, Outremont, the Town of Mount Royal and Hampstead. In Toronto, most rich areas paid taxes to a larger municipality, Forest Hill was really the only exclusive suburb (and it was amalgamated into the city of Toronto in 1967).

The city of Toronto in 1930 (35 square miles) was completely built out, while Montreal a larger area (around 50 square miles) still had undeveloped territory in city limits.

Cote des Nieges/Snowdon and Park Extension were built up in the 40s and 50s, but are functionally urban neighborhoods. They are sort of like the
"Queens" of Montreal. CDN incidentally is wedged in between Westmount, Outremont, Mount Royal and Snowdon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B4te-des-Neiges

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Extension

Some Streetview pics

CDN/Snowdon:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4887...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4849...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4973...7i16384!8i8192



Park Extension:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5283...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5268...7i16384!8i8192
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 10:34 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Technically urban is any area with a population density of 1500 people per square mile, I believe.

Colloquially, It’s all subjective. One persons urban is another’s suburban and one persons suburban is another's rural. Here is the intersection I live on:
You think there's a "technical" definition for a very subjective concept?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 11:19 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
What's an area that combines "urban" and "suburban" characteristics?
Pretty much all of LA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
This looks very Cleveland Heights to me.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5099...7i16384!8i8192
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 11:45 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
I can see that. Forest Hill and the Vaughan Road area developed around the same time as Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 11:52 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 12:51 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
The main difference is 2023 Toronto is packed-in and 2023 Cleveland is sorta overbuilt. So there will naturally be more Toronto street vibrancy. But the neighborhoods look pretty similar.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 2:27 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Toronto has a lot of big apartments too which add significantly to density.

Forest Hill has a population density of about 15,000 per square mile, while the Vaughan Road-St. Clair area has a population density of over 20,000 per square mile.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 2:33 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
Funny you say that. I dated a girl from Harlem who only considered Manhattan to be "New York City" and called Yonkers "upstate".
Manhattan is sometimes called "New York" but not New York City. OTOH, the more ambiguous "New York" can mean Manhattan, New York City, or New York State.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 2:41 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
What's an area that combines "urban" and "suburban" characteristics?

Here are some Streetview pics of Forest Hill in Toronto - it has lots of very expensive SFHs with a very suburban feel (and some of Canada's most desirable real estate) but also a lot of apartments, high pedestrian traffic and pretty vibrant urbanism along the commercial streets. Very Jewish.

The major corridors seem unambiguously urban, but this is the only thing I spotted that is unambiguously urban for residential: https://goo.gl/maps/3DpLxor4fgfZ2Bh1A
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 3:00 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Manhattan is sometimes called "New York" but not New York City. OTOH, the more ambiguous "New York" can mean Manhattan, New York City, or New York State.
Did she refer to Queens as "suburban"?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted May 16, 2023, 3:13 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Did she refer to Queens as "suburban"?
I can't answer that for goat314, but there are parts of Queens that would fit most definitions of suburban. It's the biggest borough by land area, and it has the most drastic change in built form of any borough. Queens goes from this to this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:32 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.