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  #1021  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 4:58 PM
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rypinion rypinion is offline
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Less than half the people flocking to the Canadian Museum for Human Rights are paying to get in.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...t-in-1.3092272

Hey lets build a national museum and when you come and visit we'll decide on what and if you pay based on your ethnicity!
That same article says they exceeded their revenue targets by 20%, and hit their yearly attendance target after seven months.
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  #1022  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by rypinion View Post
That same article says they exceeded their revenue targets by 20%, and hit their yearly attendance target after seven months.
Exceeded their revenue targets which were artificially set low to begin with, the visitation revenues are a small fraction of the actual operating costs and naturally they hit their yearly attendance target when less than half those visiting actually paid to get in, duh!

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2015/05/2...-visitors-paid

When the novelty of the ''white elephant" wears off in another year or two....the shit's going to hit the fan!
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  #1023  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 5:29 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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Yeah, I think it's worth noting that the operation costs of the museum are in excess of $20MM. Arbitrarily setting a benchmark of $1.5MM and then claiming you 'beat' that isn't really an honest assessment of matters.

First off, why would your benchmark only be 7.5% of operating costs?
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  #1024  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 5:36 PM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Yeah, I think it's worth noting that the operation costs of the museum are in excess of $20MM. Arbitrarily setting a benchmark of $1.5MM and then claiming you 'beat' that isn't really an honest assessment of matters.

First off, why would your benchmark only be 7.5% of operating costs?
All national museums lose money, but are still expected to set performance targets and report annually to Parliament on their results. The cmhr operating costs are low compared to other national museums. If they can grow their attendance, and I am one of the optimists on that front, they could be quite successful on a relative scale.
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  #1025  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
Yeah, I think it's worth noting that the operation costs of the museum are in excess of $20MM. Arbitrarily setting a benchmark of $1.5MM and then claiming you 'beat' that isn't really an honest assessment of matters.

First off, why would your benchmark only be 7.5% of operating costs?
Great to see you back Simp!

Set the bar low and always come back hat in hand is just how these things are operated nowadays.
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  #1026  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 5:45 PM
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All national museums lose money, but are still expected to set performance targets and report annually to Parliament on their results. The cmhr operating costs are low compared to other national museums. If they can grow their attendance, and I am one of the optimists on that front, they could be quite successful on a relative scale.
I'm not against the museum by any stretch, I'm just suggesting that arbitrarily moving targets around and claiming benchmarks are being met leaves it impossible for anybody to hold them to account. How are you supposed to scrutinize a secretive, moving target? Until there's another leak, are we really going to rely on an employee of the CMHR to give us the 'truth'?

As far as operating costs go, I'd expect that a brand new building were cheaper to operate. I'd also expect that displays that are mostly monitors are easy to maintain and rejig at a relatively low cost. I'm not sure comparing costs across museums by just looking at their operating expenses is a meaningful basis for comparison.
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  #1027  
Old Posted May 29, 2015, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
I'm not against the museum by any stretch, I'm just suggesting that arbitrarily moving targets around and claiming benchmarks are being met leaves it impossible for anybody to hold them to account. How are you supposed to scrutinize a secretive, moving target? Until there's another leak, are we really going to rely on an employee of the CMHR to give us the 'truth'?

As far as operating costs go, I'd expect that a brand new building were cheaper to operate. I'd also expect that displays that are mostly monitors are easy to maintain and rejig at a relatively low cost. I'm not sure comparing costs across museums by just looking at their operating expenses is a meaningful basis for comparison.
The targets are reported to parliament as well on a go forward basis.

Cost comparisons are interesting here. While the building is new, it's design is such that I am not sure it is efficient to operate (or keep the glass clean at least). Others here would know more about that. The nature of the contents is a mixed bag when it comes to costs. Other museums focus on artifacts. Once they are acquired the ongoing costs are low. For our museum the emphasis is on learning, curriculum development and heavy IT costs that are ongoing. I don't mind that because a lot of local sourcing can be done and is being done apparently which provides a boost to some local knowledge based companies. I remember a high tech business owner telling me once that a purchase order was of much greater value to him than a government grant.

Last edited by Tacheguy; May 29, 2015 at 6:18 PM. Reason: Further thought
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  #1028  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 4:07 AM
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got a bunch of friends that have done IT work at the cmhr since summer on contracts yet to visit the place my self just to dammed busy
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  #1029  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 4:52 AM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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Originally Posted by Tacheguy View Post
The targets are reported to parliament as well on a go forward basis.

Cost comparisons are interesting here. While the building is new, it's design is such that I am not sure it is efficient to operate (or keep the glass clean at least). Others here would know more about that. The nature of the contents is a mixed bag when it comes to costs. Other museums focus on artifacts. Once they are acquired the ongoing costs are low. For our museum the emphasis is on learning, curriculum development and heavy IT costs that are ongoing. I don't mind that because a lot of local sourcing can be done and is being done apparently which provides a boost to some local knowledge based companies. I remember a high tech business owner telling me once that a purchase order was of much greater value to him than a government grant.
I would guess that artifacts are more expensive to retain. You need ideal environmental conditions, heightened security, and extremely expensive insurance premiums given the priceless nature of them. And they still require the same curriculum development, curatorial work, staffing and everything else that keeps a museum relevant. Those museums will also require virtual displays and everything else that makes a modern museum to go along with their existing offerings. The idea that a few IT folk in Winnipeg are learning specialized skills by programming a few displays is probably an overstatement. I've been through the museum and there's nothing in there that isn't basic audio/visual work hooked into some expensive monitors. Let's not kid ourselves about the marginal difference in how many people are truly involved in this over other museums. I'd be confident in saying fewer are required given the lack of real exhibits.

The point I'm making is that what we consider a 'success' is just an arbitrary figure pulled from thin air. It's fine to take the position that this is somehow required knowledge on behalf of all Canadians and therefore it can't be measured by attendance figures and the revenues associated. But to suggest it's a 'success' on any other basis is a pretty flimsy statement. It's in it's inaugural year and it's little more than an event centre. I don't think anybody had in mind a corporate event centre when they planned the Museum for Human Rights.

If the mandate is to educate the general public on human rights issues, they're doing a relatively poor job considering that it appears the lion's share of the people entering the building are there for dinner and drinks in some capacity.
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  #1030  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 11:34 AM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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Originally Posted by Simplicity View Post
I would guess that artifacts are more expensive to retain. You need ideal environmental conditions, heightened security, and extremely expensive insurance premiums given the priceless nature of them. And they still require the same curriculum development, curatorial work, staffing and everything else that keeps a museum relevant. Those museums will also require virtual displays and everything else that makes a modern museum to go along with their existing offerings. The idea that a few IT folk in Winnipeg are learning specialized skills by programming a few displays is probably an overstatement. I've been through the museum and there's nothing in there that isn't basic audio/visual work hooked into some expensive monitors. Let's not kid ourselves about the marginal difference in how many people are truly involved in this over other museums. I'd be confident in saying fewer are required given the lack of real exhibits.

The point I'm making is that what we consider a 'success' is just an arbitrary figure pulled from thin air. It's fine to take the position that this is somehow required knowledge on behalf of all Canadians and therefore it can't be measured by attendance figures and the revenues associated. But to suggest it's a 'success' on any other basis is a pretty flimsy statement. It's in it's inaugural year and it's little more than an event centre. I don't think anybody had in mind a corporate event centre when they planned the Museum for Human Rights.

If the mandate is to educate the general public on human rights issues, they're doing a relatively poor job considering that it appears the lion's share of the people entering the building are there for dinner and drinks in some capacity.
The federal government self-insures its assets, so those extremely high premiums don't exist as a budget item. Even critics of the museum are likely to acknowledge that having dinner or drinks and checking out the exhibits are not mutually exclusive events. I have been through it several times and saw lots of people engaged with the content. Having lived in Ottawa I can tell you that national museums there also host many many social events.

As for the audio visuals, the costs have to do with data base development and management which is much more dynamic and costly than a static display. Let's not forget as well the research and curriculum development at the cmhr.

This museum is unique in that it is trying to position itself as a go to centre for applied human rights education, targeting international groups such as police forces, military, legal practitioners etc. this is not going to happen in a year or two, but when it does we will see real local benefits. To have products and delivery systems to Appeal to those audiences requires tons of development, maintenance and marketing. And it it will never pay for itself. Will the cmhr ever get there? Who knows. Check back in ten years I guess.
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  #1031  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 2:52 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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The federal government self-insures its assets, so those extremely high premiums don't exist as a budget item. Even critics of the museum are likely to acknowledge that having dinner or drinks and checking out the exhibits are not mutually exclusive events. I have been through it several times and saw lots of people engaged with the content. Having lived in Ottawa I can tell you that national museums there also host many many social events.

As for the audio visuals, the costs have to do with data base development and management which is much more dynamic and costly than a static display. Let's not forget as well the research and curriculum development at the cmhr.

This museum is unique in that it is trying to position itself as a go to centre for applied human rights education, targeting international groups such as police forces, military, legal practitioners etc. this is not going to happen in a year or two, but when it does we will see real local benefits. To have products and delivery systems to Appeal to those audiences requires tons of development, maintenance and marketing. And it it will never pay for itself. Will the cmhr ever get there? Who knows. Check back in ten years I guess.
The museum isn't so dynamic that the costs associated with research and curriculum and IT management are driving the building's bottom line. The building's bottom line is being driven by everyday staffing, administration, some form of debt service, and building management and expenses. I wouldn't hesitate to suggest that the costs we're comparing - a traditional museum vs. that of what is essentially a virtual museum - are immaterially different, especially is the Feds are self-insuring. As I said before, curatorial work and so on aren't specific to the CMHR.

So this gets back to why anybody would put a national museum in Winnipeg. I don't doubt the CMHR has a plan to bring police forces and military organizations and so on into the museum, but at some point these organizations are going to realize that Canada is a big country and it's not a bus ride to Ottawa from Winnipeg. It's fine if you're talking about groups that are training in Shilo, but who would approve a budget item that had you walking through a museum in an isolated prairie city for a few hours as the only item on the agenda? That's why national museums and monuments are generally concentrated amongst themselves in Ottawa and DC.

What you're suggesting is a big *if* statement. And as I said earlier, I'm not steadfastly on the anti-museum side of the argument. I've just been around long enough to know that when bureaucrats and politicians start talking about how the expenditure of public funds is going to start putting our city (or an other small city, really...) "on the map", so to speak, it's always heavily optimistic to the point of being gratuitous.

Which is why things need to be looked at from the point of view of being less wasteful instead of more. And we're always having this discussion on government and quasi-government projects because it's becoming its own cottage industry: consultants, bureaucrats, politicians, and special interest groups conspire to present an unrealistic, overly-optimistic vision of something, obfuscate and fudge the numbers to build the business, political, and need case, then seek funding for the most grandiose proposal they can cobble together instead of everybody applying the proper scrutiny to keep expectations and costs in line with reality.

It should be enough to say that the CMHR is always going to represent a niche topic amongst few people and its service is as a public education piece. As such, it should be somewhat modest instead of gaudy and garish to the point of consuming its own subject matter, but that's a topic for another day. In any case, the thing is already built. The unwarranted optimism can cease now. Nobody dealing in reality should believe that the museum is ever going to truly attract a worldwide audience with any sort of regularity because of where it's located. Full stop. We can always pretend its success is right around the corner but that just leads to what we're already seeing: the constant redefining of what success actually looks like. It is what it is - an event center with sufficiently non-controversial, milquetoast content that stands as a monument to both government waste and corporate megalomania depending upon which side of the fence you're on.

Perhaps one day it'll even recognize real human rights atrocities, but I doubt it.
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  #1032  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 3:24 PM
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying but disagree with your conclusion. It is, as you say a an education and niche product. but a niche product for many, not for just a few. If for example one or two percent of the lgbt community in North America make their way through there once in their lives that would be a huge benefit. There are many segmented markets like that. Make it a part of targeted convention marketing. Their are lots of opportunities without trying to pretend it is has Statue of Liberty potential. Having an interesting building obviously doesn't hurt from a marketing point of view.
Anyways neither you or I know how this thing is going to turn out as that will be a function of many things. Leadership mostly though.
Last points I will make are that the cmhr isn't an atrocities museum per se, nor was it designed to put Winnipeg on the map.
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  #1033  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 3:31 PM
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Last points I will make are that the cmhr isn't an atrocities museum per se, nor was it designed to put Winnipeg on the map.
I agree with the bolded point. From the very beginning people have been way too fixated on the atrocities side of things to the point of embarrassing themselves. Human rights is about much more than that.
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  #1034  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 5:08 PM
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I agree with the bolded point. From the very beginning people have been way too fixated on the atrocities side of things to the point of embarrassing themselves. Human rights is about much more than that.
My point is that it does nothing well except act as an event centre because it's political above all else. Advancing the dialogue about human rights involves taking history to task. What we have is a monument to how effectively people can pat themselves on the back. That's it. If you want to avoid the atrocities that paved the way towards change, then you're just making a very expensive commercial and that's what they've succeeded in doing.

There's no much more to it. Getting people to wander an expensive movie theatre full of half-truths and revisionist history is not going to attract a worldwide audience. People want reality. That's why the March of the Living is so successful. Its hard truths trigger emotion in people.

The only thing I left the CMHR feeling was that there sure was a lot of glass and that anybody under 17 you bring through the place is going to brought to tears by boredom before content.
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  #1035  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 5:31 PM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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anybody under 17 you bring through the place is going to brought to tears by boredom before content.[/QUOTE][B[/B]

Ever take kids to the National Gallery in Ottawa?
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  #1036  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 7:47 PM
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Isn't the rotary club international suppose to be bringing thousands of students (last i heard was 30,000 a year) into Winnipeg to tour the Museum starting soon?
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  #1037  
Old Posted May 30, 2015, 7:53 PM
Simplicity Simplicity is offline
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anybody under 17 you bring through the place is going to brought to tears by boredom before content.[/QUOTE][B[/B]

Ever take kids to the National Gallery in Ottawa?
At least there's art! But point taken.

The Museum of Natural History in Chicago is easily the best museum on any topic I've ever been through.
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  #1038  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2015, 12:47 PM
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  #1039  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2015, 1:42 PM
Tacheguy Tacheguy is offline
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one helluva pic rkspec
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  #1040  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2015, 5:16 PM
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wicked pic! (I'm sure some are thinking the end of world is coming and CMHR is too blame)
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