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  #61  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2019, 5:15 AM
mhays mhays is offline
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Thankfully the suburbs have started to kind of help with the problem.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2019, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by floor23 View Post

The claim/narrative that "Seattle is dying" is incredibly exaggerated and devoid of economic reality. It shouldn't surprise anybody that the vast majority of homeless in King County live in the City of Seattle as that is where the almost all of the homeless/social services are located.
I haven't seen the video (yet), but it looks like something some news segment producer might have put together for February sweeps or something. The video is from March, which kind of surprises me because again, it looks like something that would've aired during a sweeps period. That's usually when those sensationalistic news packages air to pull in the ratings... because American corporate-sponsored news is all about ratings.

Maybe the video did air during a sweeps period and was just uploaded in March, I don't know...
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  #63  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2019, 4:00 PM
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Please watch the video before assuming. It's very well done and very pertinent
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  #64  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2019, 6:31 PM
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It is well done and rather long too. Yes, it has a certain point of view and was no doubt edited to reflect that point of view. Still, it is a close up look at a real set of problems. It is far too long a video to have attracted a large audience, so I doubt it did much to bump ratings. The one hour doc seems to have sparked some genuine dialog. See link below.

https://mynorthwest.com/1394683/wpc-...-dying-panel/?
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  #65  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2019, 8:09 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post

I'm sharing my Thomas story here, Pedestrian, because of the SF connection, but also to illustrate how difficult it is for even a fairly high functioning and generally compliant mentally ill person to stay in the system and maintain housing. Clearly there are some options for those that are able to do so, and San Francisco seems to spend a good bit of money trying to deliver services. Austin also spends a pretty penny, especially for a city in Texas. It still isn't enough and there is a complete lack of coordination and tailoring of services even to help those who want to help themselves. I don't have an answer, but I know we are doing nobody a favor to allow the homeless population to run amuck and degrade the environment for themselves and everybody else as well. Even somebody as high functioning as Thomas would benefit from conservatorship. He wouldn't like it, but he'd be a lot better off with some mandatory supervision and timely interventions.
Essentially, what could seem to be required is to entirely infantilize the homeless, assuming they have the social skills of a 2 year old and society is their parent so must do everything for them and tolerate the occasional temper tantrum while nevertheless accessing reources of never-ending love.

It might be a nice vision but seems slightly impractical.

I don't know anything about what other cities offer. Here is what San Francisco offers to try to prevent the periodic crises you describe in this man's highly dependent lifestyle.

First there is this group of really very dedicated people who constantly patrol some of the areas you mentioned including Civic Center and GG Park:

Quote:
San Francisco Homeless Outreach Team

The San Francisco Homeless Outreach Team (SF HOT) is a collaboration between the SF Department of Public Health, Human Services Agency, SF Public Library and the non-profit, Public Health Foundation Enterprises (PHFE). The program was reorganized in 2014, 10 years after its formation, to more effectively engage and stabilize the most vulnerable and at-risk homeless individuals and to help prevent the harmful effects of homelessness. Through outreach, medical services, engagement and advocacy, we are dedicated to transitioning individuals into stable living and healthcare environments with access to services that promote greater health and housing retention and reduce vulnerability and the utilization of emergency services.

We work in small teams to outreach and provide care management and medical services to homeless individuals. Each of our team members have expertise in the many complex barriers to stability. These barriers include mental health disorders, disabilities, lack of ability to trust and hopelessness. By focusing on the needs of our most vulnerable citizens, we hope to greatly reduce the negative effects of homelessness on individuals and the community as a whole.
As the photo shows, it's a sizeable group and they have vans in which to patrol as well as transport willing homeless persons to services.

Services they can utilize, aside from emergency rooms and psych clinics run by the Dept. of Public Health include:

Quote:
San Francisco Navigation Centers and SAFE Navigation Centers

San Francisco’s first Navigation Center opened in March 2015 and was a successful pilot serving San Francisco’s highly vulnerable and long-term unhoused neighbors who are often fearful of accessing traditional shelter and services. HSH subsequently opened 8 Navigation Centers and currently has 6 in operation.

San Francisco’s Navigation Center model is being replicated nationally and, here in San Francisco, we building on this best practice by developing SAFE Navigation Centers.

Similar to Navigation Centers, SAFE Navigation Centers are low-threshold, high-service residential programs for adults experiencing homelessness in San Francisco. SAFE Navigation Centers are one part of the Homelessness Response System and are an attractive service for people living unsheltered or in encampments.

SAFE Navigation Centers are essential to reducing unsheltered homelessness and connecting guests to services and housing assistance. SAFE Navigation Centers build off of the best aspects of Navigation Centers while making them more scalable, sustainable, and effective. The City is looking to expand SAFE Navigation Centers in neighborhoods across the city to respond to the homelessness crisis.

Navigation Centers and SAFE Navigation Centers are a proven way to get people off the street and on a pathway to housing and stability. In 2018, the Department of Homelessness and Supportive Housing helped over 2,200 people (out of a population of an estimated 4400 living outside on any given night) exit homelessness, and since their launch Navigation Centers helped 46% of their guests end their experience of homelessness after a stay in a Navigation Center.

Navigation Centers and SAFE Navigation Centers do not accept walk-ins. All individuals and couples who enter have been selected by the SF Homeless Outreach Team or a centralized referral system. Because Navigation Centers operate 24×7, there are no lines outside in the evening, and guests are not exited onto the street in the morning.
http://hsh.sfgov.org/services/emerge...ation-centers/

The Nav Centers are, of course, temporary measures. In addition, SF has built literally billions of $ of housing specifically for the "formerly homeless" (that is, people who would be homeless without it). Periodically, a new multi-hundred million $ bond issue for this purpose comes before voters. One for $600 million is, I believe coming this November. Some of these facilities even have on-site medical facilities. But there is, as you can imagine, a huge demand: Thousands of people get on the list for each few hundred new units.

Since many of the people living in tents on the sidewalk are substance-addicted, the city has recently started:

Quote:
In San Francisco, Opioid Addiction Treatment Offered on the Streets
By Abby Goodnough
Aug. 18, 2018

. . . in San Francisco, . . . city health workers are taking to the streets to find homeless people with opioid use disorder and offering them buprenorphine prescriptions on the spot.

The city is spending $6 million on the program in the next two years, partly in response to a striking increase in the number of people injecting drugs on sidewalks and in other public areas. Most of the money will go toward hiring 10 new clinicians for the city’s Street Medicine Team, which already provides medical care for the homeless.

Members of the team will travel around the city offering buprenorphine prescriptions to addicted homeless people, which they can fill the same day at a city-run pharmacy . . . .
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/18/h...addiction.html

This is in addition to a long-standing program of city-funded treatment on demand in established outpatient programs offering such modalities as methadone and buprenorphine.

And the city very much wants to establish "safe injection sites" where addicts can inject drugs indoors where safe needle disposal is the norm, but at the moment has been stymied by the Feds.

It seems to me really hard to know what else can be done aside from building on these initiatives to the extent possible. We need more Navigation Center beds. We may need more money for outreach programs.

But the one thing we haven't done is use law enforcement to clear the sidewalks. Unlike in many cities and suburbs, it's hard to think of a site in San Francisco where outdoor camping could be allowed with sanitary facilities, law enforcement and all the other things needed to keep it safe for residents and clean/disease-free. But maybe we need to try to find such a spot, then tell people if they want to live in a tent they have to do it there. It will necessarily be some distance from the downtown areas where a lot of existing treament and welfare programs are so someone like your Thomas may not want to go there. But really, must we let them have everything their way?
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  #66  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2019, 10:29 PM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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Former mental patient with criminal history loose on the streets of downtown Seattle stabbed three innocent people this morning. This should add some fuel to the debate.

https://mynorthwest.com/1445988/nake...ntown-seattle/
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  #67  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 12:45 AM
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^^Yup. After stabbing 3 people at random, he stripped off all his clothes as he ran away.

I've actually seen more than one deranged homeless person strip naked in public, once in the middle of a busy McDonald's.

We don't yet know if this guy was homeless or living on the street but he is clearly psychotic, not institutionalized and with a long history of mental ilness.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
I guess there's a fork in the road here. Do we respect the original wisdom behind this concept and make good on its promise by introducing the mental health and drug rehabilitation services which aren't there now and enforce the conditions of mandatory treatment? Or do we scrap the whole thing and not care that someone is unnecessarily given what is essentially a termless prison sentence because it's "easier" to achieve the goal of zero bums on the street?
This is the crux of the issue. Are we ready to fund and re-implement mandatory treatment/institutionalization?

This is just another important part of the national healthcare debate that isn't getting mentioned. Only the gubment has the scale to implement such a costly thing as mental health is incredibly expensive.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 7:34 PM
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Sh!t like that will never happen in our lifetime. Extraordinary measures to curb access to opiates would be better. It's short sighted to think you can solve homelessness also. No matter how many beds you provide and meals you serve, or syringes you distribute, the demand will not be exhausted. There will always be people on the fringe who genuinely need help and those who are lazy or opportunistic. Not to be a jerk, but western states need to be more heavy handed. If a bunch of hippies had a rave out in a national forest and shitted up the sight, the rangers would arrest them and kick them out. Assholes in tents throwing garbage around and doing drugs are the same thing. I think Portlands mayor finally got that message and is starting to actually enforce the camping ban when sights get troublesome. I dont condone rousing peaceful sleepers but multiple tents always end up being like a trashy compound. Or erupt into flames. Hobo camps burning dont make the news often but we had over 80 of them last year alone .
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  #70  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pdxtex View Post
If a bunch of hippies had a rave out in a national forest and shitted up the sight, the rangers would arrest them and kick them out.
Quote:
Burning Man receives 'assurance' from BLM; final EIS report due in June
Jennifer Kane, Reno Gazette Journal Published 6:00 a.m. PT May 29, 2019 | Updated 10:48 a.m. PT May 30, 2019

Just a few more weeks, and Burning Man organizers will find out if an impending, federal environmental impact statement is going to forever "change the fabric" of the event.

Organizers at least seem less convinced that the report could "outright kill" the massive desert celebration, as they told followers earlier this spring.

"We’re already moving forward with planning this year's event with the assurance (from the BLM) that there won’t be any significant changes," Burning Man CEO Marian Goodell told the Reno Gazette Journal last week.

The organization in April was frantic over the Bureau of Land Management's more than 300-page draft report, which proposed that Burning Man incorporate dumpsters, drug searches and concrete barriers at the event . . . .

Some measures might be phased in over time, or some may only go into effect when certain conditions are met, such as when the population hits a certain figure (100,000 enough?), he said.

The public or any other entity is entitled to appeal the environmental impact statement, according to Evenson . . . .

. . . Burners need to be more diligent about disposing of their trash appropriately during and after the event . . . .

"The BLM as a whole is managing public lands, and that’s a high task – you’ve got ranchers, ATV vehicles, Burning Man – managing all these things on public land, that’s huge," said Goodell. "I don’t think they’re trying to prevent us from happening. We’re an anomaly, it takes courage and perspective to want to let us flourish."
https://www.rgj.com/story/news/2019/...rt/1223785001/

If only as much attemtion were paid to tent camps in Golden Gate Park.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 8:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Half crazy addicts have always existed. In the past they generally lived in the cheapest apartments in the worst neighborhoods. What has changed is that they can't afford those places anymore. There is a strong correlation between high rents and people living on the fringes being homeless. Part of the reason it seems like a west coast problem is that the cities of the west coast are expensive.

One of the perverse things about modern America that we have become numb to is that generally our wealthiest cities are the ones with the worst homelessness. Something has become fundamentally broken in our housing markets. All of our more prosperous cities are slowly turning into San Francisco.
I am sorry, but how does a jobless drug addict afford any apartment? If you don't work and spend hundreds or thousands on something(drugs, alcohol) which does nothing for you(houses, feeds, utilities etc.) every month, I don't really feel bad you can't afford a house. Sorry. I think we as communities and a nation should help these people with real help, to get them off whatever is ruining thier lives. But why should we give them housing or whatever so they can go out and get fucked up every day and not work?
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  #72  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
But it's exactly what a culture like ours, which has religious and moral views descended from those held by a bunch of scraggly low class settlers from the British Isles, would do.

Not a history expert, but IIRC starting in the middle age, England had poor houses and in some eras even had the death penalty for "vagabonds". In the 1700s and 1800s because of economic changes creating mass migrations of peasants they got even more strict and people were pressed into manual labor at these institutions if they were found to not be employed or living outside the area they had residency in. The design of modern prisons owes a lot to these places. The panopticon concept, the striped prisoner clothes, etc. Those were invented by "liberals" of the era like Jeremy Bentham. The term used for people who lived in the poor houses was literally "inmates". Their living conditions were deliberately meant to be as punitive and unpleasant as possible. Families were broken up and children were institutionalized too.

Sometimes when I argue online with very conservative people here in 21st century USA I get the feeling that if they had their way this old system would come back. If you ask them where should homeless or poor people go, they have no answer, but they don't want to see them. If you say we should help people they say they don't deserve it. All they really want is for people they see as scum to punished.
I'm conservative as they come. We should NOT as taxpayers fund a drug addict to live in a house. They don't work and do drugs all day, why should we fund that? They are bloodsuckers of society. Now, I DO think we should help these people kick their habit.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
Former mental patient with criminal history loose on the streets of downtown Seattle stabbed three innocent people this morning. This should add some fuel to the debate.

https://mynorthwest.com/1445988/nake...ntown-seattle/
Last year in Phoenix, this spring chicken:



Broke into my sister-in-law's apartment and could have killed her and/or her roommate. Her landlord chased the dude off, and he proceeded to try to set fire to neighboring houses before finally stabbing a 36-year-old man to death in front of his wife. Police found him in the victim's front yard, covered in blood, "laughing and singing country songs."

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...son/478507002/

The guy had a long criminal history:

Quote:
The Arizona Department of Corrections website shows Bagley was released from prison March 17 after a nearly four-month sentence for absconding supervision from a previous conviction. He has a criminal history in Arizona dating back to 2008.

From 2008 to 2015, Bagley was convicted of aggravated assault, theft, burglary and attempting to commit a narcotic drug violation. He also had multiple convictions for drug possession and theft in North Carolina.

Bagley has served more than six years in prison over the past decade. The Corrections website shows he was cited on multiple disciplinary infractions for disorderly conduct, disruptive behavior, criminal damage, and threatening and fighting.
And as recently as 2015 he had been found incompetent to stand trial, and went through a "restoration to competency" before agreeing to a plea deal.

After all that, they still just released him to the streets. Don't have much to add to this discussion as far as solutions go, but that incident shook me. Trying to deal with people like that through the criminal system really doesn't seem to work.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 9:54 PM
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If this stuff is largely a "west coast" thing, does that include Vancouver? Vancouver is well known for having drug problems but I haven't heard much about the other stuff.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 9:54 PM
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We need to make committing people involuntarily to mental wards/hospitals a thing again. There's just too many dangerous mentally ill people roaming the streets who desperately need treatment. I'd rather foot that bill tax-wise and see less people with the potential to go on stabbing sprees.

I always thought that Treasure Island in SF could be a great option to offer a ton of city-provided healthcare, food, and shelter services and get people off the streets and into a condensed area. I know it's unPC to say, but let's be honest, it's terrible for everybody all around to deal with shantys on city streets, not to mention it's a public health threat (diseases, needles, feces). If we created a little welfare island it would keep the issue concentrated and more monitored.
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  #76  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 10:46 PM
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Escape from hobo island! Michael Bay is getting excited.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 11:33 PM
JoeMusashi JoeMusashi is offline
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Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
We need to make committing people involuntarily to mental wards/hospitals a thing again. There's just too many dangerous mentally ill people roaming the streets who desperately need treatment. I'd rather foot that bill tax-wise and see less people with the potential to go on stabbing sprees.

I always thought that Treasure Island in SF could be a great option to offer a ton of city-provided healthcare, food, and shelter services and get people off the streets and into a condensed area. I know it's unPC to say, but let's be honest, it's terrible for everybody all around to deal with shantys on city streets, not to mention it's a public health threat (diseases, needles, feces). If we created a little welfare island it would keep the issue concentrated and more monitored.
Until somebody accuses you of segregating these people away from polite society. It could never work. The bums, addicts, and mentally ill would never agree to this arrangement, nor would their political proponents. It is a nice thought but proves why left-wing solutions to problems often end with authoritarian ones. Freedom is dangerous and uncomfortable--whether it is allowing mental patients out on the street, tolerating disagreeable speech, or letting people own firearms.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2019, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by destroycreate View Post
We need to make committing people involuntarily to mental wards/hospitals a thing again. There's just too many dangerous mentally ill people roaming the streets who desperately need treatment. I'd rather foot that bill tax-wise and see less people with the potential to go on stabbing sprees.
Why not just enforce laws, document offenders and as they continue to rack up violations, mandatory prison sentences.

You know, kinda like how the law treats normal people.

Take a shit in the street in front of children, 5 years in jail. That'll clean up the streets real quick.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2019, 3:35 AM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Why not just enforce laws, document offenders and as they continue to rack up violations, mandatory prison sentences.

You know, kinda like how the law treats normal people.

Take a shit in the street in front of children, 5 years in jail. That'll clean up the streets real quick.
^^^That makes so much sense to me.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2019, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Why not just enforce laws, document offenders and as they continue to rack up violations, mandatory prison sentences.

You know, kinda like how the law treats normal people.

Take a shit in the street in front of children, 5 years in jail. That'll clean up the streets real quick.
Because the aclu will sue in the grounds that the homeless are being harassed and homelessness and metal illness is being criminalized.. It's basically what's happening now
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