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  #21  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2016, 11:48 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Toronto's "Little Italy" on College St. became the city's main Italian district by the 1920s. It was supplanted by another working class area to the northwest, much further from downtown, by the 1960s, which was the main reception area for postwar immigrants. The northwest movement has continued to the Downsview area of North York and later the suburb of Woodbridge.

Today Corso Italia (at Dufferin and St. Clair) has a dwindling old school Italian population, but certainly there are still a lot of elderly unilingual Italians there. It was I believe about 70% Italian at one time, probably about 20% Italian now, having given way to new groups like Portuguese and Latin Americans. The College St. Little Italy isn't very Italian anymore, hasn't really been since the 1970s. Today it's a very trendy and gentrified area known for its restaurants and nightlife, though there's still a handful of old Italians there.

There's still a significant presence in the working class inner suburb of Downsview, though it's on the decline and has become home to other groups.

Woodbridge, part of the edge city of Vaughan, now is the biggest Italian area in Toronto. It includes more middle class housing but also the Italian developer/construction elite in some sections. Since it's a very car-oriented area, there's little Italian "street presence", though there's certainly a lot of Italian spoken and businesses catering to the Italian community.

Last edited by Docere; Apr 24, 2016 at 2:02 AM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 12:58 AM
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For Chicago ... Elmwood Park, maybe?
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  #23  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 1:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
In the NYC area, any regular white middle class neighborhood within 100 miles or so of Manhattan will have an Italian presence. Of course Italians are suburbanized alongside everyone else, but there are still some old-school urban enclaves.

Putting aside the touristy Little Italies of the region, places that are both old-school Italian and where you may hear Italian spoken would be:

Dyker Heights Brooklyn (around 13th Ave.)
Morris Park, Bronx (around White Plains Road and Williamsbridge Road)
Middle Village, Queens (along Metropolitan Ave.)
Howard Beach, Queens (along Cross Bay Blvd.)

Then there's the South Shore of Staten Island, which is definitely Italian, and where you are very likely to hear Italian, but the problem is it's newer and more suburban, so you lose the feel, even if the shopping plazas are full of salumerias and Italian bakeries.

There are other Italian enclaves, but I would say less intense these days. These would be East Williamsburg around Metropolitan Ave. (yeah, hipsterville still has an Italian section, where you still see little old Italian ladies making "gravy" outside their house), Bensonhurst around 18th Ave. (though the Chinese are really taking over this section), Whitestone, Queens, Mill Basin, Brooklyn, Gravesend, Brooklyn (which has some really good Sicilian places still) and even Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn (though this area is also super yuppieville).
Which is quite different from the Italian geography of the city ca. 1940. At that time East Harlem was the biggest Italian neighborhood in the city and Little Italy in Manhattan was still going strong. The major Italian areas of the outer boroughs then I believe were Arthur Ave/Belmont in the Bronx, and Red Hook/Carroll Gardens and Bushwick and Williamsburg in Brooklyn.

After the war, Manhattan ceased to be attractive to Italian Americans or to new immigrants.

My guess is the "old" Italian areas of Brooklyn were the initial settlements for the postwar immigrants but the center of Italian life in Brooklyn spread southward, with Bensonhurst and environs soon becoming the city's biggest Italian neighborhood. It's interesting that it went from Jewish to Italian, rather than an earlier Italian population attracting a later one.

The "old" Italian American population, meanwhile, moved to Queens and out of the city altogether to Long Island in the postwar years. So I'm guessing the Italian neighborhoods of Queens, like Howard Beach (which is pretty suburban in character) attracted both "old" Italian Americans and postwar immigrants.

Meanwhile, I suspect Staten Island is really just an offshoot of Bensonhurst and a suburban outpost that really took off a generation later than LI.

At this point I suspect the descendants of Italian immigrants a century ago mostly live in far-flung suburbs and exurbs like Suffolk County, Dutchess County, central NJ etc., with some assimilated yuppies and hipsters living in Manhattan and the "hip" parts of Brooklyn rather than in the Italian enclaves that are still largely first and second generation.

Third and fourth generation Italian Americans still living in the "old neighborhood" is probably more of a Philadelphia thing.
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  #24  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 1:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
north beach and Manhattan's little Italy are just restaurants...not the real thing.

I need to check out Arthur Ave in the Bronx. Still Italian?
Italian-ish. The neighborhood still has Italians, though they're a minority. But Italians from all over the region still work or shop there, so there's definitely some degree of authenticity. And it's much bigger than Manhattan's Little Italy.

But if you want Italian feel, not Italian American, 13th Ave. in Brooklyn is probably your best bet. NYC had significant Southern Italian immigration until the 1970's, especially to SW Brooklyn, and you are far more likely to hear Italian in SW Brooklyn as opposed to Arthur Ave.

In the Bronx Morris Park is actually the most Italian neighborhood, and has plenty of shops/restaurants, but more for locals than the masses of Manhattanites/suburbanites who flock to Arthur Ave. Here too you will hear Italian.
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  #25  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 2:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
At this point I suspect the descendants of Italian immigrants a century ago mostly live in far-flung suburbs and exurbs like Suffolk County, Dutchess County, central NJ etc., with some assimilated yuppies and hipsters living in Manhattan and the "hip" parts of Brooklyn rather than in the Italian enclaves that are still largely first and second generation.

Third and fourth generation Italian Americans still living in the "old neighborhood" is probably more of a Philadelphia thing.
Yeah, probably. I think this all makes reasonable sense. The thing is, Brooklyn real estate went from Detroit to San Francisco in one generation, so older Italians cashed out big-time, or if their kids inherited the real estate, they sold. And it isn't really the gentrification/hipster stuff. It's mostly demographic expansion by Orthodox Jews and huge new waves of immigrants to SW Brooklyn, especially Russians and Chinese.

Orthodox Jews have replaced Italians in a number of areas, but especially Gravesend. They put massive demand on S. Brooklyn real estate, especially around Ocean Parkway, and formerly semi-dumpy Italian areas are now all Orthodox and filled with faux-palazzos.

This neighborhood was all Italian 30 years ago. Now you have a fancy apartment building for Orthodox Jews, obvious Orthodox-oriented retail, an Israeli falafel place and a Russian pharmacy.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/44...tUA9MQxB0IHDAA

This neigborhood is still somewhat Italian, but massively reduced. Note the Russian, Hebrew and Chinese signage, alongside some Italian places. The condo buildings going up everywhere cater to Russians/Ukranians.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/39...ea350b!6m1!1e1

And then Chinese took Bensonhurst and Bath Beach and the Russians took Sheepshead Bay and Madison.

In Philly, you don't have quite the same demographic pressures, so the old school Italian-American presence is a bit more obvious. There's less reason to sell and move to North Carolina and Florida when grandma's dumpy old home isn't getting $1.4 million. But Brooklyn has a more clearly Italian presence because of the postwar immigration. The Italian-American "Vinny from Brooklyn" cliche (separate from the Italians who came in the 1960's and 70's) is long gone. You'll still find this in Staten Island, though.
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  #26  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 4:26 AM
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Yeah, the heart of the Italian community in Chicago was Taylor Street. Roughly 2/3 of this neighborhood was wiped out completely in the 1960s, for the new UIC Circle campus. Planners were careful to leave most of Taylor Street itself intact, but most of the surrounding residential blocks were leveled. It's still the symbolic heart of the Italian community, but what's left of the neighborhood is mostly an affluent mix of students and folks who work in the Medical District.

The other Italian area was around Grand and Morgan... again, much of this neighborhood was leveled in the 60s for the Kennedy Expressway although some businesses remain.

Italians generally moved westward, out Grand Ave and North Ave to inner-ring suburbs like Elmwood Park, Melrose Park and Bensenville and later to more far-flung suburbs like Addison and Lombard. If you go any further out, there is no recognizable community of Italians anymore, just suburbanized white folk...
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  #27  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 4:30 AM
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LA does not have an Italian neighborhood anymore. Apparently Chinatown took over what was our Little Italy some time around the turn of the century.
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  #28  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 4:37 AM
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Boston's North End seemed pretty Italian.
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  #29  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 5:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
At this point I suspect the descendants of Italian immigrants a century ago mostly live in far-flung suburbs and exurbs like Suffolk County, Dutchess County, central NJ etc.,
Or Florida. Is there a word like Nyricans, but for New York Italians? Because that's what we have. Lots of them. Not so much in Miami anymore but anywhere else along the coast. Of course at this point it's not Little Italys. It's more like Little New Yorks. But the Italian in them feels like a big influence.
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  #30  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 3:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Boston's North End seemed pretty Italian.
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  #31  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 5:28 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Boston's North End seemed pretty Italian.
Certainly more authentically Italian than Manhattan's Little Italy! It's small but remarkable that there's still some holdout there.
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  #32  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 6:49 PM
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Last edited by miketoronto; Apr 19, 2019 at 5:03 PM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 6:52 PM
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interesting:

Quote:
As of 2006, 1,445,330 Canadians residents stated they had Italian ancestry, in which 741,045 had sole Italian origins while the other 704,285 were of partial Italian origin along with other ethnic origins, chiefly with other European ethnic groups e.g. Italian-Irish, Italian-English, Italian-French, etc. The latter group climbed by almost 25%, while the Italian Canadian population as a whole grew by 12% since the 2001 census.

As of 2007, 34% of the ethnic Italians in Canada live in Toronto, and 17.6% of the ethnic Italians in Canada live in Montreal; the Italian communities together make up almost 50% of Canada's Italian population.[5]
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  #34  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 6:54 PM
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U.S. States with over 10% people of Italian ancestry[edit]

Rhode Island 18.9%[156]
Connecticut 18.7%[157]
New Jersey 16.8%[158]
Massachusetts 13.9%[159]
New York 13.5%[160]
Pennsylvania 12.2%[161]
New Hampshire 10.7%[1]
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  #35  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 7:06 PM
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while it could never be compared to the historic italian neighborhoods in older cities, one chef turned businessman back in atlanta is trying to create some semblance of a 'little italy' on the westside of atlanta:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7845...8i6656!6m1!1e1

it started around a pizzeria (antico) but has grown to add a gelateria, a bakery, bottega and a couple of other restaurants.

http://legacy.11alive.com/story/news...taly/24331985/
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  #36  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 9:02 PM
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To what extent is Italian still spoken in Italian American enclaves? Here's the Italian speaking population in selected Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia area ZIP codes:

Chicago:

60706 (Norridge/Harwood Heights) 1,551 6.9%
60707 (Elmwood Park) 1,451 3.6%

Boston:

02155 (Medford) 1,873 3.3%
02151 (Revere) 1,544 3.1%
02149 (Everett) 1,201 3.1%
02128 (East Boston) 1,185 2.9%

Philadelphia:

19145 (South Philadelphia) 1,285 3%
19148 (South Philadelphia) 1,271 2.7%

Source: http://statisticalatlas.com
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  #37  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 9:16 PM
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NYC:

11357 (Whitestone, Queens) 3,797 9.9%
11228 (Dyker Heights, Brooklyn) 3,817 9.2%
11414 (Howard Beach, Queens) 2,083 7.8%
11379 (Middle Village, Queens) 2,471 7.2%
10461 (Morris Park, Bronx) 3,045 6.3%
10465 (Throggs Neck, Bronx) 2,471 5.8%
11214 (Bensonhurst, Brooklyn) 3,926 5%
10312 (South Shore, Staten Island) 2,609 4.6%
10308 (South Shore, Staten Island) 1,237 4.5%

Long Island and Westchester:

10709 (Eastchester) 802 9.1%
11010 (Franklin Square) 2,094 9%
10604 (West Harrison) 1,015 9%
10704 (Yonkers) 1,755 6.1%
11542 (Glen Cove) 1,441 5.6%
10805 (New Rochelle) 952 5.6%
10543 (Mamaroneck) 969 5.1%
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  #38  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Boston's North End seemed pretty Italian.
Boston's North End is still very Italian overall and I saw a map showing the largest foreign immigrant groups to each neighborhood and the North End was still dominated by Italians as far as foreign migration is concerned and you can still here Italian spoken while walking around in the neighborhood.
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  #39  
Old Posted Apr 24, 2016, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
To what extent is Italian still spoken in Italian American enclaves? Here's the Italian speaking population in selected Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia area ZIP codes:

Chicago:

60706 (Norridge/Harwood Heights) 1,551 6.9%
60707 (Elmwood Park) 1,451 3.6%
Interesting about Norridge. It's basically a Chicago neighborhood that never joined the city. I always think of it as being heavily Polish, didn't know about the Italian component.

Worth noting that the Census long form has a very small sample size, so at the zipcode level you should take all the data con una presa di sale...
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  #40  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 1:14 AM
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Anyone know if there are still Italian-oriented commercial areas in South Philly?

I'm looking on Streetview in neighborhoods south of Snyder, as those appear to be the whitest neighborhoods in South Philly, but not seeing much. Is the Italian community just interspersed with other white ethnics or are there identifiable Italian corridors? Not seeing salumerias, restaurants and the like, but I could be looking in the wrong places.
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