Rail relocation Winnipeg

[1ajs]

if were guna imbark on this crap lets make sure we keep the passinger part coming to downtown still

[kent_eh]

Originally Posted by audie

Not necessarily. Relocating the rail yard wouldn't mean that every rail line that serves it would relocate too. Keep in mind that a number of businesses inside the city rely on direct rail connections to bring in or ship out goods.

Thank you. It seems like people expect this to mean removing every piece of track, and that's not something that will ever be in the plan.

[pegster]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

if were guna imbark on this crap lets make sure we keep the passinger part coming to downtown still

If you mean VIA, pretty sure those are different lines (CN vs CP).

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

the main track would be the last thing to go. So we would still be seeing all the heavy freight traffic run through the City for numerous decades.

Actually of the projects that would in Winnipeg the only thing that would need to change is the location of the two mainline tracks and the spur line running to the south.

There is zero chance the maintenance yards, and all their jobs, stay in Winnipeg when the city and province are forcing the relocation. Worse with the province now pushing the agenda on relocation it is very likely the maintenance yards, the national training facility and everything else rail related other than the cargo transfer yards permanently leave the province.

Personally I am shocked that our governments are willing to spend six figures courting possible large employers (Amazon) and on the other hand are willing to spend ten figures or more chasing employment out of the city.

The rail yards all currently have two routes in. Any rail line relocation in Winnipeg means at best the yards would be left with one line access. I am certain the rail companies will deem that unacceptable. And is rail relocation just about the lines or the yards too? Anyone thinking that the north end yard is going to be some high value land when rail leaves is being ignorant of the larger issues at play in that area of the city. And the CN yard on Lag? What's next, asking Maple Leaf to permanently close their plant here so people in their seven figures houses don't have to live next to the smells of a generational industrial area? Of the three yards the one with the least challenges location wise in the Transcona yard but being realistic it has been heavy industry for such a long time it would likely qualify as what the Americans call a superfund site. I am not saying that makes it a hard "no go" but rather it is going to be a very long process of decommission the site and then rehab the site to the point it is available for reuse.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

If, IF, the railways ever agreed to move, the yards would need to be built first. There would still need to be industrial spurs going to the various industries in the City that have rail service. There are regulatory requirements for rail service. Etc, Etc. It's very complex. Not just build track and move, done.

In the grand pie in the sky vision of people saying "relocate rail" all those businesses depending on rail would be relocated too.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by pegster

If you mean VIA, pretty sure those are different lines (CN vs CP).

VIA appears to be running on the CN main line west of downtown. The exact same line that tops people's list of what should be relocated outside of Winnipeg first.

[peg]

Originally Posted by CoryB

VIA appears to be running on the CN main line west of downtown. The exact same line that tops people's list of what should be relocated outside of Winnipeg first.

I see the argument for removing passing freight traffic from the city, but VIA and passenger rail services should be preserved at Union Station.

I don't see the argument for moving all railways, more so for freight trains and railyards.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Actually of the projects that would in Winnipeg the only thing that would need to change is the location of the two mainline tracks and the spur line running to the south.

There is zero chance the maintenance yards, and all their jobs, stay in Winnipeg when the city and province are forcing the relocation. Worse with the province now pushing the agenda on relocation it is very likely the maintenance yards, the national training facility and everything else rail related other than the cargo transfer yards permanently leave the province.

Personally I am shocked that our governments are willing to spend six figures courting possible large employers (Amazon) and on the other hand are willing to spend ten figures or more chasing employment out of the city.

The rail yards all currently have two routes in. Any rail line relocation in Winnipeg means at best the yards would be left with one line access. I am certain the rail companies will deem that unacceptable. And is rail relocation just about the lines or the yards too? Anyone thinking that the north end yard is going to be some high value land when rail leaves is being ignorant of the larger issues at play in that area of the city. And the CN yard on Lag? What's next, asking Maple Leaf to permanently close their plant here so people in their seven figures houses don't have to live next to the smells of a generational industrial area? Of the three yards the one with the least challenges location wise in the Transcona yard but being realistic it has been heavy industry for such a long time it would likely qualify as what the Americans call a superfund site. I am not saying that makes it a hard "no go" but rather it is going to be a very long process of decommission the site and then rehab the site to the point it is available for reuse.



In the grand pie in the sky vision of people saying "relocate rail" all those businesses depending on rail would be relocated too.

It makes zero sense to move the main track without moving the yards. The railways would never agree to that. All trains going through Winnipeg use the yards extensively for train dispatching, marshalling, maintenance, crew transfers, etc. It doesn't make sense to build a bypass, but then need like 90% of the trains to come in to the City for various reasons. It just doesn't work.

In the overall scheme, CN Symington Yard could likely remain where it is as it's already at the outskirts of the City. Would need to re-orient the main track routes to head southward along Plessis or something to bypass the City to the south. CN is probably easier to move as the only other yard they have is Fort Rouge, which is basically just an extension of Symington at this point. A holding location for trains. beyond that is serves no purpose. Via could remain and the old tracks/corridor used for transit.

The CPKC yards in the north end is the biggest driver of rail relocation. So moving that yard would be like step one.

To my earlier point about moving yards first. You would need to phase in a new CPKC yard somewhere, probably north of Winnipeg. And build the new core main track corridor along with it. CPKC would start moving operations from north end to the new yard and eventually decommission the old route entirely. Maybe they move the classification yard first, and leave the shops in the City. Then move the shops later. It's all about cash flow.

This is what the study will look to sort out. The $400k identified in 2016 or whatever it was, is peanuts. That will get you a napkin sketch in which you can start talking about it.

[cllew]

I would not be surprised that CPKC that if enough money was offered would close down Weston Shop completely, and move all the work to Ogden Shops in Calgary and their lower cost yards in the US.

Probably easier to do that then build new buildings for a Winnipeg shop.

[optimusREIM]

Unless the offer was sweet enough to keep them here, they would for sure run for greener pastures if the province and city chased them out. No question

[bomberjet]

It's the sad state of affairs where everything consolidates to Calgary/Edmonton.

CN even opened an office in Calgary, as the new CEO lives there and for customer relations with the large amount of head offices located there.

Winnipeg geographical location is still the last major stop before heading through northern Ontario. There would still be some sort of shops here for maintenance. But maybe the large locomotive maintenance facility could locate to Calgary. But even Moose Jaw has a diesel shop. I believe if there was a real effort regarding relocation, the Province would make a push to keep the business here. It would make no sense for them to let major railway companies leave the province to open up some land in north Winnipeg.

In terms of rail network planning, Winnipeg still serves as a major centre. CN is Prince Rupert-Edmonton-Winnipeg-Chicago/Toronto corridor. Similar for CP from Vancouver-Calgary-Winnipeg-Chicago/Toronto.

[bodaggin]

My Rail Relocation Proposal.

-Move CP yards only. CN is far enough out.
-New CP yard in Rosser. Costs Gov nothing. CP sells high priced urban land for low priced rural land. They arbitrage. This gov cost talking point is nonsense.
-New bypass line south of Wpg. Shared corridor CN/CP, minimizes bridges and overpass requirements.
-Bypass eliminates 80% of inner city travel. Resulting in only local spur traffic only (minimal use).

-Convert existing rail into LRT. MUST DO THIS. Saves CoW $10-20B and 10-20yrs. Can be deployed hella fast. And no, don't remove all the rails for BRT. Stick LRT cars on, build stations, and go.

-I reiterate, the net savings when accounting for land arbitrage and LRT savings is massive.



Sorry if I duplicated this post in another thread, just caught this dedicated one.

[bomberjet]

I've got something very similar.

CPKC new route north of City is ~30 miles. Old route through City is ~27 miles. CN new route south of City is ~28 miles. Old route through City is ~24-25 miles depending which line you use as your start point.

CPKC will not go around the south end of the City. The route is too long vs existing. The CPKC route utilizes the existing CEMR track right of way from north Transcona through East St Paul to the Red River. This uses the existing floodway bridge, but requires a new Red River Bridge.

Through West St Paul the ROW is threaded through the residential at Seiler Road, west of PR 220. From there it's westward along one of the grid roads. It could be moved to maybe on the 1/4 line so it's in the middle of the fields. Either way, the route is there. New yard up in Rosser somewhere. I didn't spend much effort at the west end

CN my route starts at Plessis and PTH 1, on a new corridor south across the floodway. New floodway bridge and new Red River Bridge. CN will be picky here on what they want. They never want a longer route, based on travel times. So coming out of Symington, this provides the shortest stretch to get down around the City. They'll probably want a connection from the existing main track near Deacons south of the floodway to my blue alignment as a direct bypass.

CN Transcona Yard would utilize the existing tracks between Plessis/ Lag, etc to get down to Symington and to the new corridor.

South of the floodway, I threaded the new corridor through the residential. There will be some properties that need to go. To the west, I spent little effort, but the tracks will need to just cross cut the farm lands for the shortest route.

The further out you get from the City to avoid residential the longer the route gets. Any of the options need 2 new Red River Crossings, likely a new floodway crossing. Grade seps of PTH 75 and potentially many other highways. 2 new 30 mile long double track signalized corridors for the main track. Expensive. New CPKC yards, etc, really expensive.

There will still be tracks heading into CentrePort, there will still be some other industrial tracks need int eh City. But for the most part, all of the main traffic will divert around the City. We can't just completely remove every spec of railways, that's not the intent of this. It's to move the bulk of through traffic out of the City.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The CPKC yards in the north end is the biggest driver of rail relocation. So moving that yard would be like step one.

To my earlier point about moving yards first. You would need to phase in a new CPKC yard somewhere, probably north of Winnipeg. And build the new core main track corridor along with it.

As soon as the CPKC or either of the CN yards is needing to relocate there are likely to be any areas looking to offer all sorts of incentives to have that yard, the associated jobs, and the tax base within their jurisdiction. Even if MB can someone strong arm East St Paul to accept a rail relocation close to the million dollar residential developments it has (a real long shot btw) and West St Paul falls in line looking a similar issues a yard relocation to Rosser in CentrePort is still not going to be a slam dunk. I am sure Steinbach, Portage La Prairie and Brandon would all LOVE and welcome rail relocation to their jurisdiction. And that is without even looking at the possibility of the yard leaving MB completely for say SK instead.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

This is what the study will look to sort out. The $400k identified in 2016 or whatever it was, is peanuts. That will get you a napkin sketch in which you can start talking about it.

I will gladly accept your check for $200K to tell you what a dumb idea this whole rail relocation is and how spending $400K to look at gifting a major employer to another province is the sort of thing that gets your government fired.

[bomberjet]

haha fair enough. $400k ain't getting much done. It will be millions in study costs over many years.

The East St Paul route follows the existing rail line which goes next to the oil depot. And is south of the hydro corridor. So it is already a shit area located behind the million dollar houses. The Province really needs to lead this if anything were to ever get done. Which they're trying to at this point.

There is zero chance Steinbach, for example, would ever be considered. Too far away. The routes need to be the shortest possible, with the least amount of curvature. The railways will not accept a bastardization beyond the level the currently have. And generally a slight improvement will make it more palatable for the railways.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

There is zero chance Steinbach, for example, would ever be considered. Too far away. The routes need to be the shortest possible, with the least amount of curvature.

That is fair but also keep in mind the yards will not be small and they could be located away from the relocation city similar to how the CN Transcona yard was originally not really part of Winnipeg. That Transcona and Winnipeg are someone continuous now is a development of roughly the last 30 years or so. Before Club Regent was built there even used to be a land gap between the two.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

The rail lines will never be moved. Too many taxes lost and the cost to move, never mind the clean up in the years afterward, is too astronomic even for consideration.

[thebasketballgeek]

Are there any precedents for such a large scale rail relocation in an inner city neighborhood somewhere in NA that the city could look at? The only thing that would be of a similar scale that I could think of is Landschaftspark in Duisburg, Germany. Visiting that place in person and it was clear it was the correct idea to convert that former industrial site into a park.

Whatever comes of the result, I believe that the environmental AND economical benefits that results from rail relocation would be greater then the current economic benefits of the rail yard as it is. Especially, if a few of those rail lines remain as grade separated rail transit. I also doubt that CN would even consider leaving the Winnipeg metro region let alone the Province if rail relocation would occur.

More importantly, I believe that rail relocation and the subsequent environmental remediation would lead to a drastic quality of live improvement for inner city residents. It seems a lot of people here focus way too much on the economy when the Winnipeg economy is quite stable and balanced as is while the quality of life is down the shitter. I doubt the rail yard is single-handedly backpacking the city’s economy, and it certainly isn’t helping the economy of the neighborhoods surrounding the rail yard.

The city needs green space, better public transportation, and more housing density in core areas. A rail relocation opens up 200 acres of land in the North End, and if we include the Weston Shops, it would add an additional 300 acres of land for all these uses. Let’s not forget the adjacent industrial areas that could be repurposed for more appropriate with its proximity to the city centre.

Do you really want me to believe the best use of these 500 acres in prime inner city real estate is best used for a bunch of rail lines? The thinking in this city has always been too small and Winnipeg can’t afford to think small when it’s growing by 20-30k residents a year.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Do you really want me to believe the best use of these 500 acres in prime inner city real estate is best used for a bunch of rail lines? The thinking in this city has always been too small and Winnipeg can’t afford to think small when it’s growing by 20-30k residents a year.

I do not think anyone is trying to argue that the CP yard and Weston shops is the best use of that land. Rather I think people are very aware that there a lot deeper issues happening in our community that would be better served with that money.

If you erase those shops and the land is fully remediated "tomorrow" that land is still in the most economically depressed and socially disadvantaged parts of the city. It is still adjacent to one of the largest Manitoba Housing developments in the city and the closest thing to "The Projects" that Winnipeg has. We have done nothing to address the long term issues of housing security, addictions, food security, MMIWGS2, truth and reconciliation, and a lot more.

Saying that land deserves a better use is blindly trying to act like it is the most prime development lot on Wellington Cres and it will never be that. We are talking more about an empty store front on Selkirk Ave. That isn't to say that it does not deserve better or that we maybe should have a larger conversation about the type and volume of freight travelling along the rail lines through the city.

This is a lot like the discussion of "open Portage and Main to pedestrians" in that it is taking comparatively tiny issue in the overall prospective of our community and trying to push it ahead of a bunch of other things claiming it will be for the greater good. We need to really step back a bit and look at a bigger picture (km) view of the community as a whole and not get caught up special interest tiny (mm) issues like this one.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I do not think anyone is trying to argue that the CP yard and Weston shops is the best use of that land. Rather I think people are very aware that there a lot deeper issues happening in our community that would be better served with that money.

If you erase those shops and the land is fully remediated "tomorrow" that land is still in the most economically depressed and socially disadvantaged parts of the city. It is still adjacent to one of the largest Manitoba Housing developments in the city and the closest thing to "The Projects" that Winnipeg has. We have done nothing to address the long term issues of housing security, addictions, food security, MMIWGS2, truth and reconciliation, and a lot more.

Saying that land deserves a better use is blindly trying to act like it is the most prime development lot on Wellington Cres and it will never be that. We are talking more about an empty store front on Selkirk Ave. That isn't to say that it does not deserve better or that we maybe should have a larger conversation about the type and volume of freight travelling along the rail lines through the city.

This is a lot like the discussion of "open Portage and Main to pedestrians" in that it is taking comparatively tiny issue in the overall prospective of our community and trying to push it ahead of a bunch of other things claiming it will be for the greater good. We need to really step back a bit and look at a bigger picture (km) view of the community as a whole and not get caught up special interest tiny (mm) issues like this one.

That and you'd effectively drive out of town one of the highest paying, union jobs in the city. I'm sure that'll help a city which struggles to attract the private investment needed to actually grow the tax base. Especially so when the average conductor/hostler is making 6 figures.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I do not think anyone is trying to argue that the CP yard and Weston shops is the best use of that land. Rather I think people are very aware that there a lot deeper issues happening in our community that would be better served with that money.

I would say it’s certainly a better use of money than extending Chief Peguis and Widening Kenaston but I digress.

Originally Posted by CoryB

If you erase those shops and the land is fully remediated "tomorrow" that land is still in the most economically depressed and socially disadvantaged parts of the city. It is still adjacent to one of the largest Manitoba Housing developments in the city and the closest thing to "The Projects" that Winnipeg has. We have done nothing to address the long term issues of housing security, addictions, food security, MMIWGS2, truth and reconciliation, and a lot more.

A lot more could be done in terms of the issues you presented, but to say nothing has been done is going over the top in criticism. The reconciliation movement in Canada has by far its strongest roots in Winnipeg, and with the Nnawi-Odena, Bay redevelopment, and you know electing an Indigenous premier I’d argue no city in the country has done more to address the issue than Winnipeg.

Originally Posted by CoryB

Saying that land deserves a better use is blindly trying to act like it is the most prime development lot on Wellington Cres and it will never be that. We are talking more about an empty store front on Selkirk Ave. That isn't to say that it does not deserve better or that we maybe should have a larger conversation about the type and volume of freight travelling along the rail lines through the city.

Well there has to be a starting point and if our premier wants to invest billions of dollars into the relocation it still means investing billions of dollars into the North End. An investment that substantial into the area will give investors more confidence to invest and spur further economic development in the surrounding area. It could lead to those storefronts in Selkirk not being so empty anymore.

Originally Posted by CoryB

This is a lot like the discussion of "open Portage and Main to pedestrians" in that it is taking comparatively tiny issue in the overall prospective of our community and trying to push it ahead of a bunch of other things claiming it will be for the greater good. We need to really step back a bit and look at a bigger picture (km) view of the community as a whole and not get caught up special interest tiny (mm) issues like this one.

I also vehemently disagree with your stance on Portage & Main but that’s an entirely separate topic.

Anyways, it’s too bad we don’t have North End residents on the forum. It would be nice to get their opinion on this. I lived in the North End for a brief period of my childhood, and during that time the Rail Yards did nothing but impede my ability to travel around the city, and I couldn’t think of a single thing it did to enhance my family’s quality of life.

I think the bigger picture is the fact the rail relocation is a signal from the city and province that something needs to be done about the North End and this is the big ticket project that could lead to a re-election if successful.