Highland Mall Redevelopment Update Thread

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by austlar1

The difference long term will prove to be the fact that Highland is an inner city location that is already well connected to the core of the city. The Domain location is suburban and isolated from the most vibrant parts of the city.

The connectivity is actually pretty similar. If you want to get there, you get on a highway or on the train. Arguably, the Domain has better connectivity currently, as it's on a metrorapid route.

Highland suffers a bit because it's boxed in by both 290 (the actual highway segment) and the rail line.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Retail is the only thing that animates the Domain, and retail, even high end retail, is not what it used to be.

And the thousands of apartments and literally millions of square feet of offices.

https://communityimpact.com/austin/n...-north-austin/

Originally Posted by austlar1

I think, long term, a lot of what happens around the Highland area will depend on Travis County. I have a feeling that the Family Courts are going to end up at the county site in a new mid rise structure.

You do realize the travis county site is across the a highway and half a mile from Highland?

I don't see how you can honestly lump in stuff so far away from Highland, but ignore stuff that's a lot closer to the Domain/NBG. Heck, there's the whole Arboretum if you're okay with stuff that separated.

Originally Posted by austlar1

From what I can tell, the Domain area has none of that going for it. It sits isolated beside a busy freeway and surrounded by dreariness.

Unlike Highland which is isolated by 2 freeways (and plenty of dreariness).

Originally Posted by austlar1

The neighborhoods to the east are limping along trying to avoid becoming crime ridden slums.

You mean Rundberg/Lamar, 2.5 miles away?

You realize Highland is just as close to that area?

[Jdawgboy]

I'm wary to jump into this but since I've been up and around the Domain a few times recently I've most definitely noticed growing pains as austar1 surmised and MichaelB is right in that the developers made some major mistakes in planning not just within the development but with the connectivity to the surrounding area.

First I will discuss its growing pains. It's getting more and more difficult to drive through the Domain. There are no stop lights whatsoever. Every intersection is a stop sign. Shoppers and pedestrians constantly cross plus more are crossing when they aren't at a crosswalk, giving little thought to traffic which backs up traffic all over the Domain. When it's not pedestrians, it's other drivers. When you have cars backed up in all four directions, getting through those intersections safely can be a challenge. I've seen some close calls. I won't even get into the original section with its street parking. I've also seen drivers push through with pedestrians crossing putting them in danger of getting hit, or the drivers aren't paying close enough attention. In any case it's poor planning plain and simple. They need to put in street lights or it's only going to get worse.


Secondly, the Domain really is it's own little island. When I drive into the Domain it feels like I'm entering a shopping district not connected with the surrounding fabric, the street grid is designed to funnel people in and out. There are no major thoroughfares that go through it and the ones that they built again are designed more for getting people into parking garages and then back out to leave the area.


Now since this thread is about Highland I'll leave it at that for the Domain. Feel free to move my comments to the other thread if necessary but the subject has relevance to Highland and how it will develop over the next 10 to 20 years. Highland can easily be developed as part of the fabric of the city. Roads can easily be built through it to connect to the surrounding grid. Metrorail has a stop there and it is easily accessible by a variety of ways. As far as if it will become denser than the Domain, well I'll take a wait and see approach but I do think it has the potential to become a very dense node within the original core of the city.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Highland can easily be developed as part of the fabric of the city. Roads can easily be built through it to connect to the surrounding grid.

But it very likely won't be. We already know all the streets that will be added (they're all in the master plan), plus there's no surrounding grid to tie into (again, it's surrounded by two highways and the rail line).


Again, it won't be a bad place, and density is good, but it's not like it'll be a nice walk there from (for instance) North Loop(the neighborhood), Windsor Park, etc.


It may be the "original core of the city" by the new definition that uses the highway loops, but remember, it was built in the 70s. It was developed as a suburb.


Edit: Since we keep conflating the threads, we can look at the NBG master plan. Which calls for a little more "griding" of the streets in the domain property. Page 4.10

ftp://ftp.ci.austin.tx.us/npzd/Austingo/nbg-np.pdf

[austlar1]

Novacek, the only thing separating the original Highland Mall parcel from the multiple sparsely developed parcels, including the Travis County property, on the other side of Koenig Lane is a very underutilized stretch of elevated freeway (freeway is kind an overstatement at this exact locale) that could easily be trenched below grade without too much expense. Airport Blvd. holds the promise of becoming much more "walkable" in the not so distant future. It has spruced up considerably in just the past few years. Neighborhoods on the other side of the railroad/light rail line are very up and coming, and they are accessible from Airport at multiple street crossings. Mueller and the Airport/Lamar areas are both definitely on the rise. It is a straight shot in on 290 from the new and rapidly growing neighborhoods developing out towards Manor. In short, Highland is already very desirable neighborhood that will attract new residents, students, county workers and those doing business with the county, etc., etc. I think it's attractions will become obvious to developers. I am guessing the area will become better known as the Airport Blvd. Corridor (it probably already has that sobriquet on some planning document) over time and development will likely run from Mueller/35 all the way up to Lamar. The Highland Mall area will be the most densely developed part of this hopefully rather pleasant part of the evolving inner city.

Re neighbohoods to the east of Domaine: I was actually referring to the Rutland corridor connecting Burnet with Lamar. It is one long stretch of dicey apartment complexes and low rise housing with lots of duplexes mostly. Yes, I know there are some business parks and other things commercial towards Burnet, but none of those things add to the vitality or attractiveness of the area. There are several board and care facilities for mentally challenged on this strip. They are unlicensed and poorly supervised. I have one good friend whose circumstances more or less forced him to rent a duplex right in the middle of this mess. I know somebody else, a high school teacher, who owns a little condo further down Rutland towards Lamar. I have visited both parties. They confirm that there is a lot of drug dealing and vagrancy happening on up and down the street. Car break-ins and apt. burglaries are a daily occurrence. The apartment complexes don't look so bad (most of them are not that old) but they are barely holding on. Just ask managers at any of these complexes. Yes, the adjoining single family home neighborhoods on both sides of Rutland are in better shape. I also know two different young people who bought single family homes in the area. It was their only affordable choice without going to the boonies or of 35 to buy a home. Theses homes are some of the most affordable housing below Parmer and west of 35. They probably hold the key to the future of this area, but it is a limited future unless some way is found to contain or clean up the mess that is taking place in the rental housing along Rutland and around the Lamar/Rundberg area as well.

It is really a stretch to compare Highland adjacent parcels to the Arboretum in terms of proximity to the Domain. I know you can do better than that.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Novacek, the only thing separating the original Highland Mall parcel from the multiple sparsely developed parcels, including the Travis County property, on the other side of Koenig Lane is a very underutilized stretch of elevated freeway (freeway is kind an overstatement at this exact locale) that could easily be trenched below grade without too much expense.
.

You can't be serious. It's still up in the air as to whether I35 will be depressed, and if it is, if it will be capped (at a cost of hundreds of millions), and you think they're going to cut and cap 2222? And that it will be cheap?

Originally Posted by austlar1

Airport Blvd. holds the promise of becoming much more "walkable" in the not so distant future.
.

Of course (of course so does Burnet). But that won't fix the general connectivity issues.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Neighborhoods on the other side of the railroad/light rail line are very up and coming, and they are accessible from Airport at multiple street crossings.
.

Between Lamar and I35 there's a grand total of 5.

It can double or more the walking distance from the "adjacent" neighborhood. It's just not very accessible from the SW.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Mueller and the Airport/Lamar areas are both definitely on the rise.
.

Mueller is 2 miles away and 2 highways away.

Originally Posted by austlar1

It is a straight shot in on 290 from the new and rapidly growing neighborhoods developing out towards Manor.
.

You're seriously using suburbs connecting via a toll road as a measure of how urban and integrated it is?

It's the same straight shot to the NBG from 100,000 in Round Rock, or eventually millions in Williamson County. Heck, from manor it's 290 and 183.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Re neighbohoods to the east of Domaine: I was actually referring to the Rutland corridor connecting Burnet with Lamar.
.

The very nearest apartments 1.7 miles away. And that's to the entrance of the Domain.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/30.3...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0

Highland is actually closer to 78753/Georgian Acres. Which is actually more dangerous/higher crime than 78758.

https://austintexas.gov/page/crime-i...isted-zip-code

All the murders of 2016 were concentrated on Lamar/East of Lamar. Nothing close to the domain (even on Rutland) but Highland Mall was bracketed by a couple.

Fewer in 2017 so far, thank god, but 25% were directly adjacent to Highland.

"The neighborhoods to the north of Highland mall are limping along trying to avoid becoming crime ridden slums. "

Originally Posted by austlar1

It is really a stretch to compare Highland adjacent parcels to the Arboretum in terms of proximity to the Domain. I know you can do better than that.

You're talking about stuff ( Mueller) 2 miles away. Why's it a stretch to include stuff 1.5 miles away from the Domain (and adjacent to NBG)?

[Novacek]

It's not like a have a dog in this fight. My house is almost exactly equidistant between the Domain and Highland mall. I "win" either way.

But objective facts are objective facts.

The Domain has more development and more density, today, than Highland mall will ever have (we know the master plan). For any "Highland-adjacent" property you also include, there's the entire North Burnet Domain area, almost any parcel of which has greater development entitlements than will be allowed anywhere near the single family by highland.

Highland is on a corridor (Airport) that is greatly hemmed in by single family parcels (most of which aren't getting any love in code next. The Domain is on a corridor (Burnet) that doesn't have any single family a mile in any direction (in this segment). Burnet's corridor plan has transit lanes, Airports doesn't in the section by highland.

Etc. Etc. Etc.

[MichaelB]

Originally Posted by Novacek

What do you think small scale mass transit looks like?


Those "silly little go carts" are probably the appropriate size, scale and speed. Being electric they also have the advantage of being clean.

Now, if I had my way, I'd run more of them in a continuous loop at a high enough frequency to be effective (instead of on-call). But I recognize that getting demand high enough for that is a hard problem.

Lets start with... how much have you shopped or dined there?
Would love to know what your experience is or if this is just a random debate.

[wwmiv]

The fact that we're talking about pedestrians and traffic as being some of the biggest problems with the Domain suggests what?

That the Domain is urban. Because that's what urban places face: inbound car traffic for the mixed use amenities offered, a dense walkable built environment with a number of building uses (including residential), and all that leads to heavy pedestrian traffic. It's 100% the second most urban place in the region. Highland isn't even #3, a title that unambiguously goes to downtown San Marcos / Texas State.

Originally Posted by MichaelB

Lets start with... how much have you shopped or dined there?
Would love to know what your experience is or if this is just a random debate.

I go to the Domain every time I visit home, which is every few months. I normally take a rideshare service there (thank god for Uber and Lyft being back in ATX) and walk around to shop.But even if a lot of the people who make up the pedestrian traffic drove there themselves, are we seriously going to argue that that has anything to do with how urban someplace is? Go ahead and write off downtown, then, as being not urban at all because most of the pedestrian foot traffic there is from people who drove in from the suburbs.

Yeah, maybe the planning sucked and they could have been better at that, but that doesn't mean it isn't actually urban.

[MichaelB]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

The fact that we're talking about pedestrians and traffic as being some of the biggest problems with the Domain suggests what?

That the Domain is urban. Because that's what urban places face: inbound car traffic for the mixed use amenities offered, a dense walkable built environment with a number of building uses (including residential), and all that leads to heavy pedestrian traffic. It's 100% the second most urban place in the region. Highland isn't even #3, a title that unambiguously goes to downtown San Marcos / Texas State.



I go to the Domain every time I visit home, which is every few months. I normally take a rideshare service there (thank god for Uber and Lyft being back in ATX) and walk around to shop.But even if a lot of the people who make up the pedestrian traffic drove there themselves, are we seriously going to argue that that has anything to do with how urban someplace is? Go ahead and write off downtown, then, as being not urban at all because most of the pedestrian foot traffic there is from people who drove in from the suburbs.

Yeah, maybe the planning sucked and they could have been better at that, but that doesn't mean it isn't actually urban.

You lost me at Uber.....

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

You lost me at Uber.....

... my choice in rideshare isn't the point. Don't gaslight my argument.

[austlar1]

[QUOTE=Novacek;7833886]You can't be serious. It's still up in the air as to whether I35 will be depressed, and if it is, if it will be capped (at a cost of hundreds of millions), and you think they're going to cut and cap 2222? And that it will be cheap?

I'll concede this point. I took a fresh drive through there tonight. That southbound onto IH35 flyover ramp is NOT going anywhere, which makes the idea of submerging the rest of the overpass pointless. Still, as highway overpasses go, this is not a terribly overwhelming (visually or noise pollution) one in terms of interacting with the intersection below. If substantial buildings anchored all four corners at street level at the Airport/ Keonig intersection, I can envision a reasonable amount of pedestrian and bike traffic in the area providing this traffic had somewhere to go.


Of course (of course so does Burnet). But that won't fix the general connectivity issues.

Airport is already is far more walkable than Burnet, and it is likely to become more so in short order. There are a lot of new restaurants and residential services popping up along there already. I took a drive tonight in the little neighborhood between Airport and IH 35 behind and to the southeast of the Travis County parcel. I was amazed at how nice it has become in this little patch of small homes over the past few years. It is leafy and has a decidedly Austin bohemian atmosphere. Aside from the risk of some Nimbyism, this bodes well for the area. In fact, all the neighborhoods on both sides of Airport through this area are enjoying a strong revival. Airport is already becoming their drag, the place to go for food, coffee, etc. I sure don't see that happening on the stretch of Burnet you are talking about near the Domain. Maybe in another 10 or 15 years, but nothing like that is happening now.



Between Lamar and I35 there's a grand total of 5.
It can double or more the walking distance from the "adjacent" neighborhood. It's just not very accessible from the SW.


The five through streets are all about four or five city blocks apart. It is plenty to make the neighborhoods on the other side of the tracks walkable and accessible. Also, across from Highland and across from the Travis County parcel on the Lamar side of Airport, there are large underutilized light industrial/warehouse spaces and/or a very large auto dealership that are ripe for redevelopment. This would doubtless increase interaction with the neighborhoods between the tracks and Lamar, although those neighborhoods will never have a lot of density. The density needs to happen along the Airport Corridor strip, in Highland Mall proper, and in other adjacent areas like Lincoln Village. None of the neighborhoods directly adjacent to what I am now calling the Airport Corridor will likely tolerate high rise development. I think the compromise will be lots of Texas doughnut type apartment structures along Airport with some mid rise and hopefully high rise office and apartment development in the Highland complex or directly adjacent.




Mueller is 2 miles away and 2 highways away.

The Mueller main entrance on Airport is a 15 to 20 minute walk up Airport to Highland Mall. You can probably bike it in about half that time or less. Let's get real, however, there won't be that much pedestrian traffic coming from Mueller, maybe some bike traffic, but not so much with foot traffic. Mueller is a car-centric development that is pretty close to Highland, and there is likely to be some synergy between the two areas before very long. I don't have a major problem with short car commutes. We are a sunbelt city in an unpleasant climate. Want to live in Mueller and work at Highland or along the corridor? Or vice versa? Want to drive and park? No problem as far as I am concerned. Isn't that really part of the attraction for residents of the Domain? They are a short DRIVE from centers of employment in that neck of the woods. A fully redeveloped Airport Blvd Corridor and Highland Mall can and should offer similar advantages. There is probably room for both developments going forward, but I don't think I will ever be able to embrace the Domain. It is just too contrived for my taste.



You're seriously using suburbs connecting via a toll road as a measure of how urban and integrated it is?

It's the same straight shot to the NBG from 100,000 in Round Rock, or eventually millions in Williamson County. Heck, from manor it's 290 and 183.

Yes, because the new residential development to the east is some of the most affordable new housing in the area, and it is closer to central Austin than the areas you mention. There will be a pool of workers living in these areas eager to find jobs with a short or simple commute. Don't overlook the possibility that there may one day be commuter rail or light rail headed out in that direction. There are railroad right of ways that could be utilized all the way out to Elgin. and there is room in the new toll road to fit rail into the center for the last few miles to a connection at or near Highland.

Your crime stats.

Not going to argue Rutland with you. I don't know the actual crime statistics, but I do have first hand experience with street life in the Rutland corridor. It is NOT pleasant. Homeowners in adjacent areas don't like it. Overall, it makes the area in question less attractive, and it will slow development along Burnet going back towards 183 from the Domain. It is likely to be years before real street improvements and sidewalk improvements are completed on Burnet between the Domain and 183. Not saying it won't happen, but it is going to be a real slog to get there. Meanwhile, the Domain will be what it is, a privately policed Potemkin Village that does not interact with surrounding neighborhoods because there is nothing to interact with for the most part.

Anyway, I am done here for now. I promised myself a long time ago to avoid debates with you. I don't really enjoy them, so I am taking the pledge again. Lips sealed going forward. Long Live Highland Mall and the Airport Blvd. Corridor!!

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

Lets start with... how much have you shopped or dined there?
Would love to know what your experience is or if this is just a random debate.

This is now pretty domain-specific. Let me move it to that thread. Coming up.

[The ATX]

We have a South Austin project thread and an East Austin project thread. So what does everyone think about having one North Austin thread? There is definitely a lot of cross talk among the Highland, Domain/North Burnet and Update threads concerning North Austin projects.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Still, as highway overpasses go, this is not a terribly overwhelming (visually or noise pollution) one in terms of interacting with the intersection below. If substantial buildings anchored all four corners at street level at the Airport/ Keonig intersection, I can envision a reasonable amount of pedestrian and bike traffic in the area providing this traffic had somewhere to go.

Visual/noise is only part of it. The other part is the distance and dead space it creates.

This is more visible in zoning maps, exactly how much of the land is TxDot right or way and won't be developeed.

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/ne...-proposed.html

For instance, big chunks of the NW/SW corners won't be developed.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Airport is already is far more walkable than Burnet, and it is likely to become more so in short order.

You need to be very explicit about what areas of Burnet and what areas of Airport you're talking about. Right by the Domain and Highland Mall, I'd say Burnet is more walkable. Burnet below 183, way more walkable (and way more new stuff going in). Miles away from the Domain (but above 183), yeah less walkable.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Airport is already becoming their drag, the place to go for food, coffee, etc. I sure don't see that happening on the stretch of Burnet you are talking about near the Domain. Maybe in another 10 or 15 years, but nothing like that is happening now.

Burnet by the domain has had that for _years_. The "Austin Commons" strip went in years ago. The strip south of Kramer was revamped.

Have you been to Top Golf? It's like the 4th most selling bar in the city. Development has already leapfrogged Burnet from the Domain.

South of Braker there's a bit of a dead zone (mostly due to Pickle) but it just got sidewalks and the east side is seeing a lot of development (new apartments, etc.).

Originally Posted by austlar1

The five through streets are all about four or five city blocks apart. It is plenty to make the neighborhoods on the other side of the tracks walkable and accessible.

It hurts the accessibility, though. I'm you live right next to one, that's great, but if not it makes your trip much, much longer.
It's like the difference between living on a grid and living in cul de sac suburbia.

Let's say you live on one of the alphabet Avenues above Koenig, you have to go down to Koenig, cross, then walk back up to Highland. It doubles your trip.

Same thing with many of the other neighborhoods east and west of Airport. And Especially east of 35. Those are residents that ideally would be in the
walk shed of any development on Airport, but are mostly cut off by geographic barriers.

The other problem is the large sections where the rail is directly adjacent to airport. Here, development along the corridor will be halved (you'll only ever get it along one side).

Originally Posted by austlar1

Also, across from Highland and across from the Travis County parcel on the Lamar side of Airport, there are large underutilized light industrial/warehouse spaces and/or a very large auto dealership that are ripe for redevelopment.

They're not that large.

No ones saying there's not parcels for redevelopment along Airport. That's why Airport has a redevelopment corridor plan.

It's just that there's 10X as many in NBG. Almost any one of which has greater development entitlements than what stuff along Airport will be allowed. Because of compatibility concerns.

We've already started to see this. We've seen the "density" of the Travis County site. 3 stories.

https://austin.curbed.com/2016/9/7/1...ulevard-county

The part of the parcel anywhere close to single family, they're limiting it to 3 stories. This will be the problem with most development along airport. So many of the parcels are narrow and directly adjacent to single family.

Originally Posted by austlar1

and hopefully high rise office and apartment development in the Highland complex or directly adjacent.

Again, we already know what's going into the highland complex. Because they've released the master plan. It's not going to be highrise.

We've also seen the planned zoning for everything else. T5 at most. I think at most 6 stories (though not even that high anywhere where compatibility is required).

Originally Posted by austlar1

Overall, it makes the area in question less attractive, and it will slow development along Burnet going back towards 183 from the Domain.

But it _isn't_. Again, they're putting in new apartments on Burnet south of Braker _today_.

You have Burnet, then industrial stuff, then the railroad, then another strip of industrial stuff, then Metric, then more industrial stuff, before you even get to _any_ residential. Nothing there is going to impede development because it's just too far away and most of it isn't even connected.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Anyway, I am done here for now. I promised myself a long time ago to avoid debates with you. I don't really enjoy them, so I am taking the pledge again. Lips sealed going forward. Long Live Highland Mall and the Airport Blvd. Corridor!!

Too bad, it's making me research stuff I hadn't before (like the statesman site for murder maps).

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by The ATX

We have a South Austin project thread and an East Austin project thread. So what does everyone think about having one North Austin thread? There is definitely a lot of cross talk among the Highland, Domain/North Burnet and Update threads concerning North Austin projects.

It gets complicated, though.

Is Highland north Austin? Or is it central Austin? Is Airport Blvd North Austin, or East Austin?

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by Novacek

It gets complicated, though.

Is Highland north Austin? Or is it central Austin? Is Airport Blvd North Austin, or East Austin?

I tend to see anything within the MoPac/183/35/TownLake box as "central". Then pick cardinal directions off of that to define N/S/E/W. So Airport could either be central or east, depending on if you're referring to Highland or Mueller.

[The ATX]

We don't have a "Central Austin" projects thread, so I don't see any confusion with where Highland posts should go. The only potential confusion I see is between North and East Austin. But based on the East Austin projects thread posts so far, this forum has considered East Austin to be mainly the east side of I-35 between the river and MLK. But the Mueller thread may need to be left as is.

[brando]

Originally Posted by jbssfelix

I tend to see anything within the MoPac/183/35/TownLake box as "central". Then pick cardinal directions off of that to define N/S/E/W. So Airport could either be central or east, depending on if you're referring to Highland or Mueller.

I've always called S. 1st, Congress & Lamar (78704) "South Austin" but it seems more and more people look at it as central with as much growth Austin has had south of 71 in the last 15 years.

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by brando

I've always called S. 1st, Congress & Lamar (78704) "South Austin" but it seems more and more people look at it as central with as much growth Austin has had south of 71 in the last 15 years.

Same, but that may be because I'm a jaded northsider lol.

[lzppjb]

I'm a lifelong Southie lol.

To me:
South Austin = everything south of the river
North Austin = everything north of UT
Central Austin = everything between UT and the river, Mopac and 35
East Austin = everything east of 35, north of the river to about MLK
West Austin = everything west of Mopac, down to around the Westlake area

Obviously, these are not the working definitions of most.