Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by McMurph

I think ridership at the stations immediately out of the free-fare zone (Sunalta, Bridgeland, the imaginary 9th Ave...) might improve if we had a variable / zone-based fare system. Paying the same fare for a one-minute ride as for a 30-minute commute grates at many people's innate thriftiness.

Should the free-fare zone be expanded to Sunnyside, Bridgeland, Sunalta, Victoria Park, Erlton? Or would this just go on to piss off the people who catch the train at the next stops out? Just stirring the pot here.

I wonder what loss of revenue would occur from these stations becoming part of the free fare zone. I don't see a revenue-by-station report on CT's site.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Should the free-fare zone be expanded to Sunnyside, Bridgeland, Sunalta, Victoria Park, Erlton? Or would this just go on to piss off the people who catch the train at the next stops out? Just stirring the pot here.

I wonder what loss of revenue would occur from these stations becoming part of the free fare zone. I don't see a revenue-by-station report on CT's site.

Expanding the free fare zone would create suboptimal network passenger flow as people would be incentivized to take the train rather than the bus. The low operating costs and high passenger volume of the LRT make it a perfect tool to get large numbers of commuters to the outlying areas where feeder bus system can handle the last mile. Incentives should be created to push short distance transit users over to the bus system as this would free up additional capacity for the LRT to take passengers farther out.

From a revenue perspective, Calgary Transit risks losing the Downtown to Edgemont user who takes a bus & train combination because the train is filled with free users going to Sunnyside. Conversely, thoughts should be given to closing the Sunnyside station at peak times to incentive passengers to take an enhanced bus service. Closure of certain stations at peak times is used by Transport for London to manage traffic flow.

Don't worry this won't happen so long as Druh Farrell is alive. She would throw herself onto the tracks in protest of any station closure project.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I went to the 9th ave station open house last night.

It was quite the Dog and Pony show. The staff had solemn expressions and were taking comments about pro's and con's of a 9th ave station in the community, and what "might" happen if the city decides to scrape the station.The worst part was that most of the residents bought into it. Let's be honest...when it comes to 9th ave station, the final plans are more or less signed and sealed. It's just a matter of selling it.

With he exception of a few coffin dodgers, most of of the residents were disappointed.

It's not just 9th Avenue that is in doubt regarding the green line. I am coming to the conclusion the whole Green Line could be dead on arrival because its just too expensive to build and no one on council will be able to come to a compromise.

At a minimum, someone should give Druh Farrell a couple of bucks to design and build green PJ's for every councillor and the mayor. There will be epic long council meetings coming up to get through that will make the 30 item secondary suite plus golf course redevelopment public hearing seem like a quick days work in comparison.

[DizzyEdge]

Re: 9th Ave. Distance would be about 600m south of 16th ave station, which is around the same distance between stations on the Bloor line in Toronto. I think unless we don't think a 9th ave station will get much use for 50+ years we should rough it in.

[sim]

Originally Posted by Cage

Expanding the free fare zone would create suboptimal network passenger flow as people would be incentivized to take the train rather than the bus. The low operating costs and high passenger volume of the LRT make it a perfect tool to get large numbers of commuters to the outlying areas where feeder bus system can handle the last mile. Incentives should be created to push short distance transit users over to the bus system as this would free up additional capacity for the LRT to take passengers farther out.

From a revenue perspective, Calgary Transit risks losing the Downtown to Edgemont user who takes a bus & train combination because the train is filled with free users going to Sunnyside. Conversely, thoughts should be given to closing the Sunnyside station at peak times to incentive passengers to take an enhanced bus service. Closure of certain stations at peak times is used by Transport for London to manage traffic flow.

Don't worry this won't happen so long as Druh Farrell is alive. She would throw herself onto the tracks in protest of any station closure project.

While I do agree that it is not a good idea to extend the free fare zone (if anything, eliminate it), the rest of your post does not represent a particularly good understanding of how public transit works or would work better.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ It represents how a transit system works under congestion. If the peak of peak drops to have no pass by, sure. Displacing someone from Mission from the 3 to the LRT isn't smart under current conditions though.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Re: 9th Ave. Distance would be about 600m south of 16th ave station, which is around the same distance between stations on the Bloor line in Toronto. I think unless we don't think a 9th ave station will get much use for 50+ years we should rough it in.

It won't get use for 50+ years, or even 100+ years, as the walk to downtown is about the same as the vertical depth you'd have to go to get to the track.

[joe498]

Not looking good everyone:

'The Green Line is in jeopardy:' Debt servicing could add $1.6B to ambitious LRT project

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...us-lrt-project

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by joe498

Not looking good everyone:

'The Green Line is in jeopardy:' Debt servicing could add $1.6B to ambitious LRT project

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...us-lrt-project

Very material costs there. I think this is also what happens when people add seemingly small elements, $50M here, $100M there, ridiculous station here, unnecessary underground there - and it all adds up, and all the additions can only be handled by loans.

Huge jeopardy without Olympics.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Very material costs there. I think this is also what happens when people add seemingly small elements, $50M here, $100M there, ridiculous station here, unnecessary underground there - and it all adds up, and all the additions can only be handled by loans.

Huge jeopardy without Olympics.

totally not true. just choices.

Money in a sinking fund before project delivery: helps shave some.

Fixed payments over 30 years works out to:

Principal is $4,600,000,000.00

Term is 30 Years

Interest rate of 3.422 %

Payments are $246,475,032.84 a year.

Interest total is $2,794,250,985.20

But the feds are paying at a faster rate, as is the province. So really, it depends what those contribution agreements say. If the feds cover financing charges over and above the construction finance to reconcile accruals (actual spending) with cash flow, that knocks out a bunch of financing costs. The feds covering that is normal. The province it all depends on the design of the contribution agreement, so also a lower rate.

Covering only a city portion of $1,533,000,000.00 will be $931,214,512.80 in interest with a fixed payment of $82,140,483.76

[technomad]

Doing Green line right is going to be expensive.. no doubt about that

But focus should be on getting the best value from the project, not just the lowest sticker price (not to say that cost cutting/efficiency exercises aren't worthwhile)

Once we do have a cost for the best value line, reframe the inevitable "we can't afford that" to "How can we afford that?"

The carbon tax is thrown around a lot as a funding source, but it's still a bit of an unknown..

I'm partial to the gas tax route for funding huge projects like some US cities do, but I can't see that succeeding unless the project was shown to benefit the whole city, not just NC/SE

That's why I think Stephen av subway needs to be thrown in to Green line project.

Yeah, it adds ~1 bil to the project, but it's never going to get any cheaper.. and better for DT to get the big construction disruptions over and done with..

Would be pretty great to have the pedestrian Stephen av project all done from Mewatta to East Village in time for Olympics too!

[technomad]

Originally Posted by suburbia

It won't get use for 50+ years, or even 100+ years, as the walk to downtown is about the same as the vertical depth you'd have to go to get to the track.

Lots of truth to this.. the St Petersburg metro has a lot of deep stations, making the decent and wait time much longer than the walk time to next station area.

And with how packed the c-trains can be after work, I found it faster to just walk home to capitol hill than wait for a non-sardined train..

Nothing wrong with leaving some level space in the tunnel there, just in case.. but pretty sure 9 av station won't ever be needed

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by suburbia

It won't get use for 50+ years, or even 100+ years, as the walk to downtown is about the same as the vertical depth you'd have to go to get to the track.

Originally Posted by technomad

Lots of truth to this.. the St Petersburg metro has a lot of deep stations, making the decent and wait time much longer than the walk time to next station area.

And with how packed the c-trains can be after work, I found it faster to just walk home to capitol hill than wait for a non-sardined train..

Nothing wrong with leaving some level space in the tunnel there, just in case.. but pretty sure 9 av station won't ever be needed

Both good points. Eau Claire station to 9th ave is only a 20 min walk, or Eau Claire station to 16th ave station via train + walk back to 9th is probably about a 5 min ride + 10 min walk. Not bad. Yeah I think I'm in the leave a level portion at 9th ave and call it a day camp. Might come in handy in a scenario where Centre is lined with condos like parts of Yonge st, and the sheer volume of pedestrians making their way downtown makes a human jam at rush hour, 50+ years from now.

That's assuming that in 50+ years everyone doesn't work from home, and that anyone even has jobs any more in the face of automation.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by technomad

But focus should be on getting the best value from the project, not just the lowest sticker price (not to say that cost cutting/efficiency exercises aren't worthwhile)

That's precisely why I side with the experts who did the 9th avenue station study. There is no way we should be wasting money on that sink-hole station with people living there only a few hundred feet from downtown.

Originally Posted by technomad

St Petersburg metro has a lot of deep stations, making the decent and wait time much longer than the walk time to next station area.

And with how packed the c-trains can be after work, I found it faster to just walk home to capitol hill than wait for a non-sardined train..

Nothing wrong with leaving some level space in the tunnel there, just in case.. but pretty sure 9 av station won't ever be needed

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I think I'm in the leave a level portion at 9th ave and call it a day camp.

I think I'd be okay with that. Just a level portion without the full station rough-in.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by suburbia

That's precisely why I side with the experts who did the 9th avenue station study. There is no way we should be wasting money on that sink-hole station with people living there only a few hundred feet from downtown.





I think I'd be okay with that. Just a level portion without the full station rough-in.

A full station rough in you might save $5 million, not $100.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A full station rough in you might save $5 million, not $100.

Exactly, that's why I wouldn't want that. In fact, I'm only going with the "create a flat section" to appease the folks who are disagreeing with the experts' reports and the facts about how useless such a station would be (as highlighted very nicely by technomad).

[ken0042]

The other two factors with the 9th ave station to consider are:

- How long will the escalator ride be? From surface to surface we may have a 5 minute walk, but if somebody on 8th ave is saved a 4 minute escalator ride, the net difference is only a minute.

- Not only would we be saving building the most expensive station (I seem to recall reading it would save $250M)- but also the maintenance costs. Just in escalator maintenance you would have more metres of escalator at that one station than the rest of the red/blue lines currently have.

If 9th ave could have been a surface station or maybe a story underground, it may have been worth it. That all goes out the window when you add in a 15 story escalator ride.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

A full station rough in you might save $5 million, not $100.

If that's the case then yeah I agree, why bother.

[lubicon]

I'm beginning to worry the City is going to blow the opportunity to take advantage of the downturn and build while costs are relatively cheap. Seems to be a common mistake we make in this province. We risk losing the supports of the Feds if this drags out long enough and then then we're really screwed for funding.

[CalgaryAlex]

The elevator ride down to the station is only one part of the trip that would make walking more worthwhile. Add the average wait time for a train (which may be packed with Panoramites) to the walk+descent time and you could have been downtown already. So this station would only serve those as south as possible in Crescent Heights who don't want to walk on rainy or very cold days. Scrap it and make Centre St as good as possible for pedestrians and cyclists.