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  #2081  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 4:37 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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My impression of the True North Square LC was that it would effectively have some boutiques within the store, ie a mini Crown Royal store. It is also possible that those boutiques sell things that are not directly alcohol either, ie a Crown Royal branded golf bag. The vision could also include selling booze related products, ie mix, ice, lemons, limes, etc. The bottle and cork operation would be another bet to move, and perhaps expand. They also have run different classes out of shops over the years so I would imagine their flagship store would take over that roll as well.

I am not sure the full details of what they have planned but betting them have some ideas. The other piece that isn't being made public is the lease cost of the True North location, the CityPlace location and the Ellice location. I would not be surprised to see CityPlace and Ellice close when True North opens. It is possible even with the crazy amount of space of the new store the cost is actually such that it ends up being less than the other two. There is a somewhat vested interest in Longboat to see that Ellice location closed at any cost.

Without knowing the lease details it is hard to attack this plan.
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  #2082  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 5:06 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Why would they be or who in their right mind would be;

- 50,000 square-foot flagship Liquor Mart at True North Square would be the largest liquor store in Canada (and the liquor store with the worst location in Canada)

- lease offer that signed without any market analysis

-probably would never turn a profit at the location based on the lease

-up to $9-million worth of tenant improvement costs

-CEO of the Crown corporation Peter Hak doubts sales would make the location viable

-thanks speNDP for signing a lease that the MLLCC can't get out of, great job!
Point by point

1. a) What are you talking about? It would be a fantastic location, right in a new Class AA office space, by the convention centre, by the arena, literally by a public plaza, by the Sutton hotel and TNS proposed apartments, not to mention all existing office space.

b) Well the size is totally ridiculous. But I love a great wine, whisky or beer, so this sounds like Disneyland and I want it. That's the extent of the reasoning I can give on that.

2. Yup.... I've never heard of a deal like this with no market analysis. Quite simply, not sure if anything could support a liquor store of this size, but half the size? I'd think easily.

3. It probably won't turn a profit not due to consumer traffic, but due to the very high rental rate. Now multiply that by 2-3x the size of a typical space.

4. I don't care, I want this and I love this. As far as I'm concerned, I can totally endorse this mistake.
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  #2083  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 5:09 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
My impression of the True North Square LC was that it would effectively have some boutiques within the store, ie a mini Crown Royal store. It is also possible that those boutiques sell things that are not directly alcohol either, ie a Crown Royal branded golf bag. The vision could also include selling booze related products, ie mix, ice, lemons, limes, etc. The bottle and cork operation would be another bet to move, and perhaps expand. They also have run different classes out of shops over the years so I would imagine their flagship store would take over that roll as well.

I am not sure the full details of what they have planned but betting them have some ideas. The other piece that isn't being made public is the lease cost of the True North location, the CityPlace location and the Ellice location. I would not be surprised to see CityPlace and Ellice close when True North opens. It is possible even with the crazy amount of space of the new store the cost is actually such that it ends up being less than the other two. There is a somewhat vested interest in Longboat to see that Ellice location closed at any cost.

Without knowing the lease details it is hard to attack this plan.
All of this.

This is essentially an MLCC themed superstore, going well beyond just alcohol.

And spot on about the Ellice MLCC. That helps the Glasshouse/Centrepoint complex.
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  #2084  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 5:11 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post

If MLLC tries to sublease the space or use it as office space instead, what will it mean for TNS? So many head-scratchers on this one.
There is no way they won't sublease this space. That's probably how they plan on integrating a variety of liquor based brands into the space, as well as food, leisure equipment, etc...
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  #2085  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 6:20 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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Not just food, leisure, etc. but they could offer expanded classes on wine, whiskey, beer, etc tasting. What about space for the required "Serving It Safe" classes. That space could also end up serving as a centralized location to handle all the permit orders too, ie almost a working warehouse.

Looking at the size of the space alone does not tell the full story here. There is a reason they jumped on the deal and it wasn't just to prop up the True North Square development. It is somewhat interesting side story that the MLLC HQ was widely thought to be the lead tenant of the development before the whole Medical Arts deal was announced.
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  #2086  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 6:58 PM
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oftheMoon oftheMoon is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
Point by point

1. a) What are you talking about? It would be a fantastic location, right in a new Class AA office space, by the convention centre, by the arena, literally by a public plaza, by the Sutton hotel and TNS proposed apartments, not to mention all existing office space.

b) Well the size is totally ridiculous. But I love a great wine, whisky or beer, so this sounds like Disneyland and I want it. That's the extent of the reasoning I can give on that.

2. Yup.... I've never heard of a deal like this with no market analysis. Quite simply, not sure if anything could support a liquor store of this size, but half the size? I'd think easily.

3. It probably won't turn a profit not due to consumer traffic, but due to the very high rental rate. Now multiply that by 2-3x the size of a typical space.

4. I don't care, I want this and I love this. As far as I'm concerned, I can totally endorse this mistake.
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  #2087  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 7:20 PM
StNorberter StNorberter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
Not just food, leisure, etc. but they could offer expanded classes on wine, whiskey, beer, etc tasting. What about space for the required "Serving It Safe" classes. That space could also end up serving as a centralized location to handle all the permit orders too, ie almost a working warehouse.

Looking at the size of the space alone does not tell the full story here. There is a reason they jumped on the deal and it wasn't just to prop up the True North Square development. It is somewhat interesting side story that the MLLC HQ was widely thought to be the lead tenant of the development before the whole Medical Arts deal was announced.
Could have gone something like this:

TN: Hey Selinger, we need a wad of cash to make TN sq a go.

Selinger: Can't do it right before the elxn. We'll give you a little bit in the form of a TIF grant, then we'll have MLL rent a ridiculous amount of space at a locked in contract. But I get to be at the announcement of the TIF.

The previous NDP gov't had lots of backhanded, wink wink deals where what was announced and what the deal actually was were completely different.


That said, I think MLL should have been discussed this with TN to see if they could find a solution before going public on it.
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  #2088  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 8:12 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
Not just food, leisure, etc. but they could offer expanded classes on wine, whiskey, beer, etc tasting. What about space for the required "Serving It Safe" classes. That space could also end up serving as a centralized location to handle all the permit orders too, ie almost a working warehouse.

Looking at the size of the space alone does not tell the full story here. There is a reason they jumped on the deal and it wasn't just to prop up the True North Square development. It is somewhat interesting side story that the MLLC HQ was widely thought to be the lead tenant of the development before the whole Medical Arts deal was announced.
Yes, their tenancy was likely tied to an initial plans to move the HQ there, and serves as a consolation prize for moving out. I do believe classes and tastings were always intended as well.

Regardless, shows how much fun it can be to have deals with the gubment!
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  #2089  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 8:58 PM
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Flatland Metropolis Flatland Metropolis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
My impression of the True North Square LC was that it would effectively have some boutiques within the store, ie a mini Crown Royal store. It is also possible that those boutiques sell things that are not directly alcohol either, ie a Crown Royal branded golf bag. The vision could also include selling booze related products, ie mix, ice, lemons, limes, etc. The bottle and cork operation would be another bet to move, and perhaps expand. They also have run different classes out of shops over the years so I would imagine their flagship store would take over that roll as well.

I am not sure the full details of what they have planned but betting them have some ideas. The other piece that isn't being made public is the lease cost of the True North location, the CityPlace location and the Ellice location. I would not be surprised to see CityPlace and Ellice close when True North opens. It is possible even with the crazy amount of space of the new store the cost is actually such that it ends up being less than the other two. There is a somewhat vested interest in Longboat to see that Ellice location closed at any cost.

Without knowing the lease details it is hard to attack this plan.
Man if they close Ellice that will drag a lot of classy folks to the Square
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  #2090  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 9:44 PM
Pinus Pinus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
Point by point

1. a) What are you talking about? It would be a fantastic location, right in a new Class AA office space, by the convention centre, by the arena, literally by a public plaza, by the Sutton hotel and TNS proposed apartments, not to mention all existing office space.

b) Well the size is totally ridiculous. But I love a great wine, whisky or beer, so this sounds like Disneyland and I want it. That's the extent of the reasoning I can give on that.

2. Yup.... I've never heard of a deal like this with no market analysis. Quite simply, not sure if anything could support a liquor store of this size, but half the size? I'd think easily.

3. It probably won't turn a profit not due to consumer traffic, but due to the very high rental rate. Now multiply that by 2-3x the size of a typical space.

4. I don't care, I want this and I love this. As far as I'm concerned, I can totally endorse this mistake.
I just would like to say that you are by and far the most level-headed, insightful, knowledgeable and unbiased poster in the Winnipeg threads..........and by default that makes you my favourite forumer.

Thank you for making the Winnipeg threads respectful, informative and fun again
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  #2091  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 9:44 PM
scryer scryer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoryB View Post
Not just food, leisure, etc. but they could offer expanded classes on wine, whiskey, beer, etc tasting. What about space for the required "Serving It Safe" classes. That space could also end up serving as a centralized location to handle all the permit orders too, ie almost a working warehouse.

Looking at the size of the space alone does not tell the full story here. There is a reason they jumped on the deal and it wasn't just to prop up the True North Square development. It is somewhat interesting side story that the MLLC HQ was widely thought to be the lead tenant of the development before the whole Medical Arts deal was announced.
I agree completely with your last couple of posts. Especially if the Convention centre starts hosting some large events, they are going to need to get the liquor from somewhere.
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  #2092  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 9:55 PM
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esquire esquire is offline
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It's too bad we won't get the real story about what MLLC was planning for TNS. The new government just wants to score political points by making it sound like the old one had no idea what it was doing (which could be true, but we don't really know in this case), and similarly, the new acting CEO won't say anything to defend the actions of the old CEO.

Who knows, maybe MLLC's plan made good sense. But all we're getting is Ron Schuler ranting about a 50,000 square foot Liquor Mart.
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  #2093  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 9:59 PM
Wolf13 Wolf13 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pinus View Post
I just would like to say that you are by and far the most level-headed, insightful, knowledgeable and unbiased poster in the Winnipeg threads..........and by default that makes you my favourite forumer.

Thank you for making the Winnipeg threads respectful, informative and fun again
Even kinder of you to say so!

Nonetheless I'm sure I can piss away any good standing in short time, so no promises :p
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  #2094  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 10:07 PM
CoryB CoryB is offline
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^^ Even if the MLCC had no clue what they would do with the full space in True North Square, if they were getting a huge deal on the space, ie the same cost as the combined CityPlace and Ellice stores today, it could have made a world of sense.

We are being given a very small slice of the whole story on this. It is near impossible to say it is a good or a bad deal based only on it being far larger square footage than any existing location in the province or comparable stores outside the province. It is sort of like suggesting buying a mini van was a complete waste compared to a vespa based only on the gas mileage.
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  #2095  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 10:08 PM
StNorberter StNorberter is offline
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
It's too bad we won't get the real story about what MLLC was planning for TNS. The new government just wants to score political points by making it sound like the old one had no idea what it was doing (which could be true, but we don't really know in this case), and similarly, the new acting CEO won't say anything to defend the actions of the old CEO.

Who knows, maybe MLLC's plan made good sense. But all we're getting is Ron Schuler ranting about a 50,000 square foot Liquor Mart.
I'm not sure how you get to be MLL CEO when your background is in health services. But NDP made A LOT of appointments where clearly the only deciding factor was the person's ties to the party.

I'm not sure how great an idea of a 50,000 sq ft store downtown is, especially if they close ellice and citiplace. It will displace those crowds to that location and I'm not sure that's what TN wants.

Regardless of how bad this decision may or may not be, going public before talking to TN to resolve it is also a pretty bad business decision.
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  #2096  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 10:30 PM
bomberjet bomberjet is offline
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A CEO is a CEO is a CEO. They make business decisions based on numbers. If you are a CEO and want to be hands on, you're not a CEO. IMO anyways.

Just like salesmen. You make a pitch to sell a product, regardless if you believe in it or not.
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  #2097  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 11:35 PM
Ando Ando is offline
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Originally Posted by StNorberter View Post
I'm not sure how you get to be MLL CEO when your background is in health services. But NDP made A LOT of appointments where clearly the only deciding factor was the person's ties to the party.

I'm not sure how great an idea of a 50,000 sq ft store downtown is, especially if they close ellice and citiplace. It will displace those crowds to that location and I'm not sure that's what TN wants.

Regardless of how bad this decision may or may not be, going public before talking to TN to resolve it is also a pretty bad business decision.
Ummm..... have you read the papers recently? The Conservatives have pretty much fired all the NDP appointments and replaced them with Conservative bagpeople. Look, you can't have it both ways. They both do it.
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  #2098  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2016, 11:36 PM
Ando Ando is offline
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Originally Posted by Wolf13 View Post
Even kinder of you to say so!

Nonetheless I'm sure I can piss away any good standing in short time, so no promises :p
I love it when we have Skyscraper love matches.
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  #2099  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2016, 5:15 AM
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rrskylar rrskylar is offline
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Originally Posted by bomberjet View Post
A CEO is a CEO is a CEO. They make business decisions based on numbers. If you are a CEO and want to be hands on, you're not a CEO. IMO anyways.

Just like salesmen. You make a pitch to sell a product, regardless if you believe in it or not.
Stinson as head of MLLCC was a joke, guy was out of his element, from what I hear his tenure at Manitoba Health was less than stellar. Who in hell puts a guy in charge of Liquor and Lotteries with no business experience, oh right the NDP that'S who!

The lease of 50000 sq. ft. of space at TN Square isn't just a little mistake, it's a fuck up!
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  #2100  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2016, 7:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Flatland Metropolis View Post
Man if they close Ellice that will drag a lot of classy folks to the Square
doubt they would they have one in city place they would prolly close first

if they close elice move it to the st charle hotel hmm
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