SAN ANTONIO | Urban Core Development Thread

[The Model]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

BASEBALL STADIUM PROPOSED FOR URBAN CORE

I'm all in on a downtown baseball stadium. I just hope the stadium will be built in consideration to expansion into a MLB stadium in the future.
Is the Institute of Texas Culture building going to be demolished too? I notice the site is mention several times for things. I would like to keep something from the original Hemisfair 1968 days. Why we have to demolish everything? Convention Center, Hemisfair Arena, Federal Court House/Texas Pavilion.

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

They're the Redbirds, btw, not that it really matters though.

They are the Cardinal AAA Ballclub. I thought that is what I said. I guess that I worded it oddly, I can see why you read it that way.

[Keep-SA-Lame]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/real-est...ar-7222631.php



Interesting, but the guy's a small time developer, his biggest project so far has been some urban townhomes on the south side. That plus the Denver Heights area being what it is, I have a really hard time seeing this getting anywhere.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by The Model

I'm all in on a downtown baseball stadium. I just hope the stadium will be built in consideration to expansion into a MLB stadium in the future.
Is the Institute of Texas Culture building going to be demolished too? I notice the site is mention several times for things. I would like to keep something from the original Hemisfair 1968 days. Why we have to demolish everything? Convention Center, Hemisfair Arena, Federal Court House/Texas Pavilion.

I understand the nostalgia for those buildings. My dad and I saw lots of Spurs games in the Hemisfair Arena when I was a kid. I saw George Gervin and Larry Bird each score 48 points there, I watched the Spurs play the Kareem/Magic Lakers in the playoffs in 1982 and 83, I even saw a couple of ABA games. But those buildings have served their purposes and the land could be better used if an architect designed something good to use the space well.

[Restless 1]

Originally Posted by jeffreininger

This is amazing news! I think baseball in downtown is a great idea. Let's just hope it doesn't end up next to the Alamodome. I think they have a few other sites in downtown that would be far more suitable for this. Eager to see how this one develops!

Just more of San Antonio settling for less. AA is already here, and arguably a better product than AAA, judging by which league sends more players to the Majors.

But, what a nice rivalry with El Paso we can cultivate.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by Restless 1

Just more of San Antonio settling for less. AA is already here, and arguably a better product than AAA, judging by which league sends more players to the Majors.

But, what a nice rivalry with El Paso we can cultivate.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. AAA baseball is the higher level of play of the two (AA and AAA) leagues.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the sarcastic slight at El Paso. The cities in double A are all mid to small in size. They have Portland Maine, not Portland Oregon.

I think El Paso is the smallest city/metro in the Triple A league.

San Antonio is the largest in the double A.

[Restless 1]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here. AAA baseball is the higher level of play of the two (AA and AAA) leagues.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the immature slight at El Paso. The cities in double A are all mid to small in size. I think El Paso is the smallest city/metro in the Triple A league.

San Antonio is the largest in the double A.

This article might explain things for you: http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-double-a-jump-2/

This reality becomes more clear when looking at the makeup of Triple-A squads, which aren’t stocked with prospects but rather used as “more of an inventory level for big league rosters,” as McDaniel puts it. While plenty of future major league stars make their way through Triple-A, the level is also filled with failed and fringy big leaguers who are in their late 20s and early 30s — aged long past the point where they can still be considered legitimate prospects. Every once in a while, said players will even become folk heroes.

A step below in Double-A, however, teams are still looking to shape future big leaguers from less fully formed balls of clay. Rarely do you see players aged into their late 20s (except on rehab assignments), and the overwhelming majority of players on the roster have a reasonable chance of reaching the majors.

Triple A is not a step up and arguably is not even a lateral move. And the list of cities certainly underwhelms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e-A.29_leagues

[fordman2800]

Originally Posted by The Model

I'm all in on a downtown baseball stadium. I just hope the stadium will be built in consideration to expansion into a MLB stadium in the future.
Is the Institute of Texas Culture building going to be demolished too? I notice the site is mention several times for things. I would like to keep something from the original Hemisfair 1968 days. Why we have to demolish everything? Convention Center, Hemisfair Arena, Federal Court House/Texas Pavilion.

I agree with with you with making the stadium expandable for MLB. I really like what they did with Toyota Field....so hopefully the follow suite if this stadium gets built. IMO, San Antonio will have an MLB team before a NFL team.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by Restless 1

This article might explain things for you: http://www.hardballtimes.com/the-double-a-jump-2/

This reality becomes more clear when looking at the makeup of Triple-A squads, which aren’t stocked with prospects but rather used as “more of an inventory level for big league rosters,” as McDaniel puts it. While plenty of future major league stars make their way through Triple-A, the level is also filled with failed and fringy big leaguers who are in their late 20s and early 30s — aged long past the point where they can still be considered legitimate prospects. Every once in a while, said players will even become folk heroes.

A step below in Double-A, however, teams are still looking to shape future big leaguers from less fully formed balls of clay. Rarely do you see players aged into their late 20s (except on rehab assignments), and the overwhelming majority of players on the roster have a reasonable chance of reaching the majors.

Triple A is not a step up and arguably is not even a lateral move. And the list of cities certainly underwhelms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...e-A.29_leagues

I'm honestly not sure if you thought posting an opinion piece was going to change my mind or prove me wrong. It did neither.

Triple A is a higher level of play than Double A. That's not an opinion, that is factual. Why you seem to not be able to comprehend that, eludes me.

If you have any notion of SA being a MLB city, without some random relocation, it has to succeed as a Triple A city. That'll prove to the MLB that SA is capable of being a MLB market. That's when expansion is possible or an owner wants to relocate.

SA doesn't deserve an MLB team just because you think it does or because you think that's where it should be. It first has to prove it's a viable market. This is that first step.

[ILUVSAT]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I think El Paso is the smallest city/metro in the Triple A league.

Almost...

Scranton, Syracuse, The Lehigh Valley, Toledo, Des Moines, Colorado Springs, Reno and Durham are all smaller "MSAs" than El Paso. Let's not forget that the El Paso/Juarez is the second largest bi-national conurbation area (between the U.S. and Mexico) which has of over 2.6 million people.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by ILUVSAT

Almost...

Scranton, Syracuse, The Lehigh Valley, Toledo, Des Moines, Colorado Springs, Reno and Durham are all smaller "MSAs" than El Paso. Let's not forget that the El Paso/Juarez is the second largest bi-national conurbation area (between the U.S. and Mexico) which has of over 2.6 million people.

I did preface my statement with I think. Haha. You're right on those markets being smaller.

[Bigfoot Yancey]

I would be thrilled to have AA or AAA baseball near or in downtown. There are lots of examples of these stadiums catalyzing entertainment, dining, and residential growth nearby.

What I am pretty sure there has never been an example of is a AA or AAA stadium expanding to major league size. Someone correct me if that is not the case. I hope we don't make the mistake of limiting site options to those with room for expansion.

That said, does anybody have any hunches on a site for this? Reading northwest corner of Hemisfair almost blew my mind. It is as if they leaked the most controversial site possible to lessen the blow of a non-optimal site.

I think Lone Star Brewery would be a great spot. Look up American Tobacco Campus in Durham, NC for what those uses combined could be. I think Fox Tech would be a great location but I don't know if there is enough space. I would have to agree with posters above that an Alamodome parking lot would be disappointing.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by Bigfoot Yancey

I would be thrilled to have AA or AAA baseball near or in downtown. There are lots of examples of these stadiums catalyzing entertainment, dining, and residential growth nearby.

What I am pretty sure there has never been an example of is a AA or AAA stadium expanding to major league size. Someone correct me if that is not the case. I hope we don't make the mistake of limiting site options to those with room for expansion.

That said, does anybody have any hunches on a site for this? Reading northwest corner of Hemisfair almost blew my mind. It is as if they leaked the most controversial site possible to lessen the blow of a non-optimal site.

I think Lone Star Brewery would be a great spot. Look up American Tobacco Campus in Durham, NC for what those uses combined could be. I think Fox Tech would be a great location but I don't know if there is enough space. I would have to agree with posters above that an Alamodome parking lot would be disappointing.

I'm still pulling for Fox Tech, mostly because the view of downtown beyond the outfield would be amazing.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

I'm still pulling for Fox Tech, mostly because the view of downtown beyond the outfield would be amazing.

That view wouldn't be consistent with typically how baseball stadiums are oriented (batters looking into the sun).

[Bigfoot Yancey]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

That view wouldn't be consistent with typically how baseball stadiums are oriented (batters looking into the sun).

Wolff Stadium points southeast. Advantages of that orientation are breeze in the faces of spectators and shade when the sun sets behind home plate. It is usually pretty nice in the shade there even in the middle of summer.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

That view wouldn't be consistent with typically how baseball stadiums are oriented (batters looking into the sun).

http://www.hardballtimes.com/lost-in...k-orientation/

The above link has an illustration that shows the orientation of every MLB ballpark. They're all over the compass.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by Spoiler

http://www.hardballtimes.com/lost-in...k-orientation/

The above link has an illustration that shows the orientation of every MLB ballpark. They're all over the compass.

6 of 32 are oriented in the general direction that you specified in your previous post.

[Spoiler]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

6 of 32 are oriented in the general direction that you specified in your previous post.

That is an excellent ratio.

[sakyle04]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I'm honestly not sure if you thought posting an opinion piece was going to change my mind or prove me wrong. It did neither.

Triple A is a higher level of play than Double A. That's not an opinion, that is factual. Why you seem to not be able to comprehend that, eludes me.

Facts of classification are not the same as facts of quality.

Yes, AAA is a higher classification, but many baseball people feel AA is the superior product in baseball terms (not fan experience, stadium size, etc).

For a close to home example, San Antonio FC is in the USL, the American 3rd division. The Scorpions were in the NASL, the American 2nd division. While NASL is classified as the "better" league, most San Antonio fans cheered going to USL for multiple reasons.
1) MLS teams are often affiliated with USL and stock better prospects there (the same reason people often prefer AA baseball.)
2) In last year's competitive matches between the 2 leagues in the US Open Cup, USL teams were 6-0 versus the NASL, despite being a lower classification.

Facts of classification are NOT THE SAME as facts of quality...

Argue over whether a downtown AAA ballpark is a precursor to an MLB team coming to SA or whether a downtown ballpark is a good thing. But don't be fooled into AAA is somehow a huge stepping stone in quality.

[sakyle04]

When it comes to AAA baseball as a proving ground for becoming a MLB team, that is farcical and not supported by any recent data.

In growing leagues like MLS, where expansion is still frequent, lower level leagues are proving grounds for reaching the top flight.

In mature leagues, demographics and money are all that talk. LA didn't get an NFL team because they proved themselves in other football leagues. They got it because they're building a BILLION dollar stadium and have an incredible TV market (where mature leagues make the vast majority of revenue).

As to whether the stadium itself could be built to accommodate an expansion to MLB? The answer is clearly NO.

If MLB wanted into San Antonio, they'd make it known and San Antonio would need to build a new MLB-level stadium. There is no sane person who would suggest an upgrade from AAA to MLB. That's like saying my starter home could fit into the Dominion with a few additional rooms.

For comparison, the new Atlanta baseball stadium opening next year cost $622million.

The Charlotte Knights opened their new AAA stadium in 2014 for a total cost of $54million.

So, half a BILLION dollars in upgrades will get you from AAA to MLB.

The stadium is not a precursor and can't be built like Toyota Field to accommodate expansion to MLB. Apples and oranges.