Hudsons Bay Building (Winnipeg) Redevelopment

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by flatlander

It already is an American chain

I disagree. It has its head office in Canada. Except for that weird Netherlands thing, all of its stores are Canadian. Its history is Canadian. The private equity firm that has controlling ownership is not the only thing that establishes nationality.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by flatlander

HBC is primarily a land developer rather than a retailer - has been that way every since it was sold to American interests. Even longer I suppose given the land grant they were given. I think there is a future for traditional retailers - I hope HBC survives long enough to see it.

what land do they develop?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by trueviking

what land do they develop?

They've also sold off the Vancouver and Toronto flagships. HBC's properties are slowly being cashed-in.

Other than the Montreal proposal, I'm not sure what other development they were involved in.

[trueviking]

I forgot about the montreal thing...ha ha...short memory.

[cllew]

now that there is wood covering the windows does the Bay Downtown come under the Vacant & Derelict building by-law?

I am not sure if that is the trigger to start a building under administration of those rules?

[trueviking]

oof

[Wigglez]

Honestly impressed that its not already covered in graffiti

[bomberjet]

Why would they do that? Just shutr down and abandoned.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by esquire

How about...

How is that an advantage that the Canadian government gave them? Lol. What did the taxpaying citizens of Canada lose from that? I stand by what I said, it’s pathetic that our governments will not bail this company out. When people internationally think of Canada they think of four things beavers, moose, maple syrup, and the HBC stripes. The HBC should be a national historic retailer.

[esquire]

^ What it should be and what actually is are two different things, though. Does HBC even need or want a government bailout for that matter? They seem to be chugging right along with their business even as it evolves... their old business models of fur trading and then big urban department stores have faded away even if the latter one is still hanging on for the moment in the biggest cities.

I'm not surprised to see the plywood going up on the store... it allows HBC to accomplish two goals. One, to secure the property, and two, to prevent the city and province from getting too comfortable with the empty Bay store downtown. This will provide a constant reminder to everyone that it's abandoned while putting some pressure on government to come up with a fix of some kind.

[T'Cona]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not surprised to see the plywood going up on the store... it allows HBC to accomplish two goals. One, to secure the property, and two, to prevent the city and province from getting too comfortable with the empty Bay store downtown. This will provide a constant reminder to everyone that it's abandoned while putting some pressure on government to come up with a fix of some kind.

Agreed. Also, we would probably see smashed windows before long.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I disagree. It has its head office in Canada. Except for that weird Netherlands thing, all of its stores are Canadian. Its history is Canadian. The private equity firm that has controlling ownership is not the only thing that establishes nationality.

In 2008 when NRDC Equity Partners, then owners of American department chain Lord & Taylors purchased HBC any possible pretense of the company still being Canadian after the 2006 completely vanished. The later purchase of US based Saks Fifth Avenue just further cemented that. It's a lot like trying to claim BellMTS isn't just Bell because their "western HQ" is in Winnipeg.

[GreyGarden]

On paper the company is not Canadian, sure. In the big picture though, when I think of HBC, its branding is "Canadian". I think the comparison to Tim Hortons is a good one on this.

At the end of the day, it's just depressing to see these big companies, Canadian or not, walking away from these buildings in downtown Winnipeg that they have a history with. I'm also talking about the BMO building at P&M. In other Canadian cities, these would be incredibly desirable places to be, the fact that that dynamic doesn't exist here sucks.

While the Montreal proposal is cool, I think some version of the Victoria proposal is about the best "realistic" outcome we can hope for. It would still be great.

Interesting point by Esquire that the boarded up windows will put the pressure on to do something about it. I suspect some artist will be commissioned to "spruce them up" and they will stay in place for a long long time.

Hopefully, something happens. I hope that 'perfect doesn't become the enemy of the good' here. The HBC doesn't have to be some silver bullet for downtown and I don't think we need years of public consultation on it. It seems pretty obvious that there should be some commercial component on the main floor, and residential on the upper floors. I can see once we start getting into "cultural centres" and "gathering places" that this whole thing will drag on. It doesn't have to be a place for everyone. But I suspect if provincial and federal government funding is needed, then some component like that will be required.

[T'Cona]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

I can see once we start getting into "cultural centres" and "gathering places" that this whole thing will drag on. It doesn't have to be a place for everyone.

Amen!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

At the end of the day, it's just depressing to see these big companies, Canadian or not, walking away from these buildings in downtown Winnipeg that they have a history with. I'm also talking about the BMO building at P&M. In other Canadian cities, these would be incredibly desirable places to be, the fact that that dynamic doesn't exist here sucks.

Totally agreed. Companies come and go, that's just life. But seeing HBC more or less walk away and just dumping the problem into the City/Province's lap is pretty humbling for a place that has felt like it was bouncing back a bit after some rough years. And as you point out, it's the same with BMO, we went through it once before when they basically walked away from their tower barely a decade after it was built and then again more recently with their main branch.

Buildings like BMO's main branch and The Bay would be treasured corporate landmarks in other cities, but here they just get tossed aside by their owners. I have to admit that's partly why I'm not that fussed with The Bay's fate... I can live with demolition if someone actually wants to build something good on that site. I don't consider it vital to spend public dollars preserving HBC's corporate history... I haven't heard too many people lamenting the fact that the downtown Eaton's is gone.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

While the Montreal proposal is cool, I think some version of the Victoria proposal is about the best "realistic" outcome we can hope for. It would still be great.

I have to say that I prefer Victoria's approach. The building's presence and relative dominance is preserved. In the case of Montreal, the building will end up being overshadowed (quite literally at certain times of day) by the new tower.

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

Hopefully, something happens. I hope that 'perfect doesn't become the enemy of the good' here. The HBC doesn't have to be some silver bullet for downtown and I don't think we need years of public consultation on it. It seems pretty obvious that there should be some commercial component on the main floor, and residential on the upper floors. I can see once we start getting into "cultural centres" and "gathering places" that this whole thing will drag on. It doesn't have to be a place for everyone. But I suspect if provincial and federal government funding is needed, then some component like that will be required.

Completely agree. A simple residential conversion with ground retail will go a long way in revitalizing that part of downtown. Waiting for some "perfect" proposal will result in years of abandonment and possibly demo by neglect.

Originally Posted by esquire

I haven't heard too many people lamenting the fact that the downtown Eaton's is gone.

I'm not from Winnipeg so I've never had the chance to see the old Eatons building in person, but from my point of view, it helps that the similar Catalogue & Mail Order building is still around. Had they demolished both, I'd be more outraged.

[GreyGarden]

While I think it's tempting to say that the area's momentum has slowed or stopped, I'm not sure if that's really related to the HBCs decision to close. I think we're so far away from having a downtown and core population large enough and rich enough to support the Bay. I think destination retail downtown is essentially done, so retail in the area will have to mainly survive off the areas residents and people that work there.

The Bay's customers in Winnipeg have more convenient options. There just aren't enough people with enough money in the area, where the downtown Bay would be the most convenient option. I think despite a growing downtown and core population - and increasing average income, the population is still a long ways away from being able to support a store like that. But I seem to remember someone saying the store was still profitable, so maybe I'm wrong.

When my friends need to go shopping in Toronto, its way easier and more convenient for them to walk or take the streetcar to retail in the downtown/core than it is to either drive, or take transit out to a mall in the burbs. That's the reality for thousands of people there. Its the reality for way fewer here.

All of that is to say, I think the core population and average income is still growing. People here are suggesting that there's still a market for residential development in the core. I think that's the real indicator of the areas strength.

[T'Cona]

Redevelopment of the Bay building could possibly work in conjunction with the redevelopment of Portage Place.

[T'Cona]

Another great example.

https://www.loftsatshillito.com/

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

In 2008 when NRDC Equity Partners, then owners of American department chain Lord & Taylors purchased HBC any possible pretense of the company still being Canadian after the 2006 completely vanished. The later purchase of US based Saks Fifth Avenue just further cemented that. It's a lot like trying to claim BellMTS isn't just Bell because their "western HQ" is in Winnipeg.

Yeah, i get that if the name on the title is your only definition. I won't argue.

In todays world, where equity firms own everything, I don't see that as the only definition of ownership...300 years of history, a corporate HQ, thousands of employees, and basically only existing in one country matters more to me than the guy who sits in the boardroom chair...but its not really worth arguing.

Its kind of like, I don't think the Atlanta Thrashers are the same franchise as the Winnipeg Jets, even though the legal title says it is....there are different ways to define ownership in my mind.