WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by armorand93

You do realize, that I mentioned U of W, Investors Group and the AnX, right? Its not as if Starlight would be sole payee... U of W has the money, especially after shitting all over students with their fees, to build a skywalk. IG already has their portion too. So that just leaves U of W, the City of Winnipeg, and maybe some incentive from Starlight to leave a skywalk connection to IG. AGAIN, they would all be full of shit, in a financial, public safety and infrastructure sense of the term, to bail out on this skywalk. ESPECIALLY when the demand exists, and Portage Place as a continued retail and restaurant destination, depends on it.

Leaving an opening makes sense but for it to make any true financial sense for Starlight to build would mean that the majority or at least some sizeable portion of their intended market would live in their development and work or study at the U of W. I just don't see that as being plausible. For the most part we're talking about students. Students don't usually have the money to buy into a new apartment/condo complex. Seniors with fixed incomes would have little use for that as they usually aren't students and since they don't usually work in the professions it doesn't really matter what other buildings other than shopping that the skywalks connect to. That leaves people between roughly 25 and 65. Many of them are working on families and aren't interested in any apartments downtown. So what I'm saying is that it's a vanishingly small number of people who would find that attractive. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm saying there's no good reason for Starlight to do it. Starlight leaving openings for somebody else (the city, really) to do it, well, that's fine but if I were Starlight, I wouldn't pay a dime for any skywalk connections to the U of W as there's no reasonably good financial incentive in it for me.

The thing is that while there may indeed be a flow of people from the U of W to PP, it has to be in Starlight's interest. Are they going to benefit at all from this skywalk? If so, how? These guys (Starlight) aren't running the businesses that will set up or are already there. They're just building (rebuilding, really) the development. If it helps them sell their product then maybe that provides the rationale. Again, however, you have to show a solid business case for them doing this. I don't see it but I don't do the numbers for them so I don't know. Now that I think of it, the skywalks would connect to PP but not directly so they don't really have any reason at all to get involved. I think at best, the city can ask them to contribute towards a connection but they'd otherwise have nothing to do with it. They're no different in this case from any other business downtown and if we're going to ask Starlight to invest, it would be unfair to not ask a host of other retailers and potential destinations from the U of W to contribute. Is that the model the city usually follows in these cases?

[CoryB]

I think the opportunity for Portage Place to become a housing base for U of W students has long past. Perhaps before the student residency and the two U of W residential towers were green light but it is almost to a point of being an overly saturated market now.

[blue4life]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I think the opportunity for Portage Place to become a housing base for U of W students has long past. Perhaps before the student residency and the two U of W residential towers were green light but it is almost to a point of being an overly saturated market now.

I don't disagree if your scope is solely focused on the U of W. However, the general student market is far from a saturated market.

People seem to have this pre-conceived assumption that just because international students who attend U of M, MITT, Red River, or any other institution outside of downtown; that those students would prefer to live right near those campuses. This is certainly not the case for many of the international students I have interacted with. But rather, there is frustration from many that the options to them are limited in the downtown and surrounding (Osborne, St. B, Exchange, Little Italy) area.

I think a student based project (designed and priced for the student base) could certainly work downtown, especially along Portage Ave, given the easy access to transit.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by blue4life

I don't disagree if your scope is solely focused on the U of W. However, the general student market is far from a saturated market.

People seem to have this pre-conceived assumption that just because international students who attend U of M, MITT, Red River, or any other institution outside of downtown; that those students would prefer to live right near those campuses. This is certainly not the case for many of the international students I have interacted with. But rather, there is frustration from many that the options to them are limited in the downtown and surrounding (Osborne, St. B, Exchange, Little Italy) area.

I think a student based project (designed and priced for the student base) could certainly work downtown, especially along Portage Ave, given the easy access to transit.

Yeah if you're going to the UofM by bus it's easier coming from downtown than it is for most of Fort Richmond. Frequent route, no transfers vs waiting 30 mins on Dalhousie for the suburban feeder route to come along. That was true when I was in school and I'm sure it's even more so now with the transitway

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I think the opportunity for Portage Place to become a housing base for U of W students has long past. Perhaps before the student residency and the two U of W residential towers were green light but it is almost to a point of being an overly saturated market now.

Maybe not for student housing, but in terms of retail, hospitality and services? Along with MB Health right next door? Its definitely a frequented destination for U of W students, and in the future, a skywalk from the U of W, to Portage Place, would be a massive boon for the University, West End (to some extent), Downtown - and of course - Portage Place.

Arguably, with an AnX connection as well, it could also help to fill up Garbonzos & provide Holiday Inn with even a potential incentive, to buy the parking lot right behind it & expand. Throw in the triangle wedge too, and current developments in the area... this skywalk extension could help to secure retail and restaurant developments, along with new services potential, which Portage Place has struggled with for decades. Thousands of hungry, bored students could suddenly start swarming Portage Place & drastically start changing monthly incomes enough for retailers to stay, for restaurants to stay open & for the new mall owners, to be able to also generate more money as well. Unless they plan on turning the back parking lots of Portage Place into some sort of Sim City 2000-esque arcology... they are going to need all of the foot traffic & help that they can get. And the U of W (that, or massive new residential/commercial developments within 10 mins walking distance of Portage, or the permanent loss of the Internet reverting everyone back to a 1980s "I Think We're Alone Now" retail dreamworld) is the answer.

[dam_well]

Originally Posted by armorand93

Maybe not for student housing, but in terms of retail, hospitality and services? Along with MB Health right next door? Its definitely a frequented destination for U of W students, and in the future, a skywalk from the U of W, to Portage Place, would be a massive boon for the University, West End (to some extent), Downtown - and of course - Portage Place.

Arguably, with an AnX connection as well, it could also help to fill up Garbonzos & provide Holiday Inn with even a potential incentive, to buy the parking lot right behind it & expand. Throw in the triangle wedge too, and current developments in the area... this skywalk extension could help to secure retail and restaurant developments, along with new services potential, which Portage Place has struggled with for decades. Thousands of hungry, bored students could suddenly start swarming Portage Place & drastically start changing monthly incomes enough for retailers to stay, for restaurants to stay open & for the new mall owners, to be able to also generate more money as well. Unless they plan on turning the back parking lots of Portage Place into some sort of Sim City 2000-esque arcology... they are going to need all of the foot traffic & help that they can get. And the U of W (that, or massive new residential/commercial developments within 10 mins walking distance of Portage, or the permanent loss of the Internet reverting everyone back to a 1980s "I Think We're Alone Now" retail dreamworld) is the answer.

As a current U of W student, I totally agree that there should be a skywalk connection to Portage Place! I often forget how close to the mall I am when I'm at school and a warm way to walk there would totally be an incentive for me to wander over, even as someone who mostly hides in the student lounges.

[dam_well]

Originally Posted by armorand93

First time I ever heard of this. Thats awesome! Is there links and renderings avaibale, by chance?

I'd also be curious to see renderings or more info on this!

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by armorand93

[...]U of W students, and in the future, a skywalk from the U of W, to Portage Place, would be a massive boon for the University, West End (to some extent), Downtown - and of course - Portage Place.

I full agree with this. The challenge is the most likely path for a skywalk would be through the IG Financial building. Not sure they want to open up the second floor to public access even if space in the building would be available. Other routes have challenges of their own but could potentially tie in the Winnipeg School Division adult learner center and Booth College officer training building as well.

All that said I think the plans of the new owner of Portage Place is not to close skywalk access but to definitely try to shift their property away from being the public space it currently is.

Originally Posted by armorand93

Arguably, with an AnX connection as well, it could also help to fill up Garbonzos & provide Holiday Inn with even a potential incentive, to buy the parking lot right behind it & expand. Throw in the triangle wedge too, and current developments in the area

U of W owns the whole block on the northwest corner of Colony and Portage with the possible exception of the hotel and apartment buildings. Further I think the surface lot between the hotel and theater building is used as a loading zone for the hotel and AnX spaces. Without it there would be need to setup a loading zone on Colony itself, something that seems unlikely to gain approval.


Also I do not think U of W is the answer to the challenges of Portage Place. U of W has existed there longer than Portage Place. Much like U of M and RRC and even CMU post secondary schools tend to be highly self contained. Students often live near the poverty line and do not have a lot of available financial resources. Also my experience as a student was time on campus was very limited and task focused. Yes there is some down time between classes but that is when you are in the library pulling additional resources, or meeting with classmates, profs, etc or just grabbing something quick to eat. Having walked downtown-U of W more than a few times the timing to get from U of W to even the Portage Place food court and back would be fairly tight. Also are the choices at Portage Place all that much better than what can be had on campus or closer to campus?

Now, if we turn things back some and U of W builds the environmental science building on top of Portage Place and the student residency is built over top of the food court end then it is more of a game changer but that isn't what happened.

[Authentic_City]

I'm pretty sure that plans for a skywalk connecting UW to Portage Place would date back to the Lloyd Axworthy construction/expansion era. During that time, there was talk of UW taking over the Holiday Inn for a student residence building, which would have made a walkway more useful for students. However, UW is currently struggling just to pay for all the new construction from Axworthy's time, so there is no real interest in further development or expansion.

The highrise apt buildings south of Portage are being developed by an arms-length venture (not UW per se) and are not student housing per se, just housing that might appeal to students. Also, the former Garbanzo's and Starbucks space in the ANX is being redeveloped as classroom and student lounge space. Apparently, no interest from restaurants or coffee shops to operate in this space due to problems of security.

I think the time has past for any skywalk to Portage Place given the direction of UW's development, and lack of interest and money.

[CoryB]

^^ The U of W Starbucks (operated by CanadInns) was fairly busy the times I was over that way. Garbanzo's though was too large and award of a space. Space issues aside having something like the Lo Pub on campus would likely have worked out better. A big part of the challenge is an oversized column of sorts, perhaps a support structure for the parkade which everything needs to be built around.

The redevelopment of the old bus terminal was clearly done on the cheap. The parts that aren't along Portage Ave should have been demoed and replaced instead of trying to reuse the existing spaces.

[Authentic_City]

^the Starbucks in the ANX always seemed busy (Sept to April) but yet CanadInns declined attempts by UW to entice them to stay. In fact, they were offered space elsewhere on campus that would have presumably been more secure, but they declined. Apparently, there’s little money to be made operating a licensed Starbucks even on a busy university campus.. Perhaps they are still sore that VLTs were not permitted in Garbanzos.

Have to agree about the cheap and awkward renovation of the ANX. It’s too bad because Garbanzos was a real gathering spot for students who clearly want to drink beer and eat wings. Why can’t a campus pub work at UW?

[buzzg]

The problem with Garbonzos was that it was Garbonzos. Students generally don't have a ton of money to blow, but enough self respect not to eat that rat food. Subway is better.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by dam_well

As a current U of W student, I totally agree that there should be a skywalk connection to Portage Place! I often forget how close to the mall I am when I'm at school and a warm way to walk there would totally be an incentive for me to wander over, even as someone who mostly hides in the student lounges.

Right?! Plus the Buffeteria isn't what it all makes out to be. Good place to meet for less than 5 minutes, but i haaaaaate sitting down there for lunch, or for studying. Especially with their expensive-ass meals. I can get 2x the food at Juniors, for the same price as their monopoly garbage.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

I'm pretty sure that plans for a skywalk connecting UW to Portage Place would date back to the Lloyd Axworthy construction/expansion era. During that time, there was talk of UW taking over the Holiday Inn for a student residence building, which would have made a walkway more useful for students. However, UW is currently struggling just to pay for all the new construction from Axworthy's time, so there is no real interest in further development or expansion.

The highrise apt buildings south of Portage are being developed by an arms-length venture (not UW per se) and are not student housing per se, just housing that might appeal to students. Also, the former Garbanzo's and Starbucks space in the ANX is being redeveloped as classroom and student lounge space. Apparently, no interest from restaurants or coffee shops to operate in this space due to problems of security.

I think the time has past for any skywalk to Portage Place given the direction of UW's development, and lack of interest and money.

You got me there on the security issues, AnX was a fucking security nightmare...

But they actually shut those places down, since I left?!?! Oh wow. Thats scary. Then again though, security did a horrible job, the area was designed like an MC Escher piece, and WPS would *sometimes* make rounds, but never enough to dissuade anyone from causing issues.

Garbonzos though - some of it wasn't bad, the games were fun, but it definitely was on the pricey side. Starbucks helped too, for caffiene. Both gone now? Man, the AnX must be depressing as hell...

[armorand93]

Also, kind of funny, they have VLT's in Portage Place (restaurant across from Fergies), yet none in Garbonzos... how does that make any sense?! Is the MLCC in their infinite retarded logic, just cherrypicking VLT placements? Its bad enough that they treat the LC's as a free for all, and can't do inspections of bars in Downtown Winnipeg, but cherrypicking VLT's? Seriously?!

[Authentic_City]

^The university objected to Garbanzo's application for VLTs.

The food at Garbanzo's wasn't that bad, I mean come on, the beer and pizza and wings were fine. But in the last year of operation, I witnessed actual fights taking place at the bus loop right outside the doors of Starbucks/Garbanzo's. Like people with bloody noses and screaming and yelling. There were very real issues of security, and UW security services was not able to be there all the time.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

^The university objected to Garbanzo's application for VLTs.

The food at Garbanzo's wasn't that bad, I mean come on, the beer and pizza and wings were fine. But in the last year of operation, I witnessed actual fights taking place at the bus loop right outside the doors of Starbucks/Garbanzo's. Like people with bloody noses and screaming and yelling. There were very real issues of security, and UW security services was not able to be there all the time.

When I was a student 14-16, there was always drunks and yelling, tons of people passed out as well (Downtown Spirit didnt help shuttling them there either), one time they even used to DRESS AS STUDENTS running through the garbages & loitering on capmus itaelf... but the fights weren't too common. The fights usually happened off campus. I think I ever saw one fight at the U of W ever, between some junkie masquerading as a student, who somehow got U of W computer access, that just randomly started attacking the woman beside her in the computer lab. But thats all I saw for physical violence.

Then, came the stabbing late 2017 of some foreign exchange student, over his laptop, by some guy on meth looking for "payday". Around the same time, AnX started looking WAY rougher as well, and it was a regular occurence to see people camped out & even passed out, in the lower levels of the University (UWSA offices). And of course, the student unions never did anything and neither did security, until the stabbing. And anytime after that, security increased drastically.

U of W security is a joke. Its rare to find WPS on campus either, they'll always be on Ellice or Portage, but never taking walks through campus (too lazy?), so the West End & underworld in general just exploits the shit out of the U of W, for illegal purposes. I think in all of that time, minus WPS coming to criminal justice classes to advertise for recruits, I only saw them in the AnX maybe once. Its kind of disappointing, public safety wise.

Bad news about Garbanzos though. I never knew that they shut down. Same with Starbucks. Damn.

[cheswick]

Plans for revamped Portage Place to include a 24 hour public space.


https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/plan-to-...pace-1.4818585

[esquire]

A 24 hour space means 24 hour staffing... we'll see how long that lasts.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Plans for revamped Portage Place to include a 24 hour public space.


https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/plan-to-...pace-1.4818585

Interesting-looking forward to seeing the plan.