Carbon Tax Discussions

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by StNorberter

That may have been true 20+ years ago. But the downfall of the PCs federally dragged the remnants of that party significantly to the right.

I agree with this. Some people have asked why all conservatives are being portrayed the same way. The answer is, all conservatives who bother to speak up or vote ARE basically the same these days. Their platform is all about dropping taxes and regulations while eliminating protections for workers and the environment and denying anyone who doesn't fit their mold their basic human rights. I dearly wish there WERE a few modern conservatives who had the guts to say their party has gone too far right and they need to get back to the old PROGRESSIVE Conservative ways, but they are either too few and far between to be heard or they are cowed into silence.

[roryn1]

I’m not reading into the drama of this thread lol, but although most of us in SK have clean air to breath there are areas around SK that don’t. The canola crushing plants and Evraz are definitely places you’ll see a noticeable difference with this carbon tax. Those industries were emitting in ways that are easily mitigated but never had a tax to stop them from ruining a 20km+ radius with participle emissions.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I agree with this. Some people have asked why all conservatives are being portrayed the same way. The answer is, all conservatives who bother to speak up or vote ARE basically the same these days. Their platform is all about dropping taxes and regulations while eliminating protections for workers and the environment and denying anyone who doesn't fit their mold their basic human rights. I dearly wish there WERE a few modern conservatives who had the guts to say their party has gone too far right and they need to get back to the old PROGRESSIVE Conservative ways, but they are either too few and far between to be heard or they are cowed into silence.

Well yeah okay then, that's about as stupid as saying anyone on the left wants a communist state!

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I agree with this. Some people have asked why all conservatives are being portrayed the same way. The answer is, all conservatives who bother to speak up or vote ARE basically the same these days. Their platform is all about dropping taxes and regulations while eliminating protections for workers and the environment and denying anyone who doesn't fit their mold their basic human rights. I dearly wish there WERE a few modern conservatives who had the guts to say their party has gone too far right and they need to get back to the old PROGRESSIVE Conservative ways, but they are either too few and far between to be heard or they are cowed into silence.

Just for clarification the conservative parties in Canada have not really gone further right, in fact they slowly drift left as time goes on. On the other hand the parties on the left keep pushing further left which is why conservatives appear to be going further right. If you look at their stances on things nothing has really changed aside from being more open to things like gay rights.

Most conservatives don't deny that climate change is happening nor do they deny that there's a human contribution. But they're sick of being talked condescendingly to and being told that they're deniers like they don't believe the holocaust happened or something. I speak as a more conservatively minded person and I'm sick of the thinly veiled lie that somehow the government taking more of my money will fix this. It doesn't work. The money just goes into a black hole and facilitates more bureaucracy.

We all want the same thing, a clean environment. My suggestion is that we make plastic bags and other disposable packaging illegal for starters. Boom! easy and effective. Second, put in place some actual transit that would incentivize people to use their cars less. Provide a viable alternative and they'll do it voluntarily. Third, if we really care about the remaining emissions at that point, give research grants to companies involved in alternative propulsion methods.

Oh and by the way, Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs. We have such a large area of forest that that amount of carbon we emit is absorbed by trees many times over.

If you're serious about climate change you have to compel China and India to abandon coal. Nevermind all those developing African countries too. All I say to you us good luck convincing those places to go back to impoverishment.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Just for clarification the conservative parties in Canada have not really gone further right, in fact they slowly drift left as time goes on. On the other hand the parties on the left keep pushing further left which is why conservatives appear to be going further right. If you look at their stances on things nothing has really changed aside from being more open to things like gay rights.

Most conservatives don't deny that climate change is happening nor do they deny that there's a human contribution. But they're sick of being talked condescendingly to and being told that they're deniers like they don't believe the holocaust happened or something. I speak as a more conservatively minded person and I'm sick of the thinly veiled lie that somehow the government taking more of my money will fix this. It doesn't work. The money just goes into a black hole and facilitates more bureaucracy.

We all want the same thing, a clean environment. My suggestion is that we make plastic bags and other disposable packaging illegal for starters. Boom! easy and effective. Second, put in place some actual transit that would incentivize people to use their cars less. Provide a viable alternative and they'll do it voluntarily. Third, if we really care about the remaining emissions at that point, give research grants to companies involved in alternative propulsion methods.

Oh and by the way, Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs. We have such a large area of forest that that amount of carbon we emit is absorbed by trees many times over.

If you're serious about climate change you have to compel China and India to abandon coal. Nevermind all those developing African countries too. All I say to you us good luck convincing those places to go back to impoverishment.

The reason why folks talk down condescendingly to conservatives is because they are extremely uninformed about the facts and the dire state we are in, as evidenced by your entire post (some of your suggestions are good start but they don't go nearly far and fast enough, while other things you say, like that "Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs", is a ridiculous and illogical argument). I'm not going to bother addressing each point of yours though because they have been discussed ad nauseam here, by researchers and climate scientists and in the media. Here is a start for you if you want to do your own research (this, specifically about the carbon tax): https://ecofiscal.ca/10-myths-about-...ing-in-canada/

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The reason why folks talk down condescendingly to conservatives is because they are extremely uninformed about the facts and the dire state we are in, as evidenced by your entire post (some of your suggestions are good start but they don't go nearly far and fast enough, while other things you say, like that "Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs", is a ridiculous and illogical argument). I'm not going to bother addressing each point of yours though because they have been discussed ad nauseam here, by researchers and climate scientists and in the media. Here is a start for you if you want to do your own research (this, specifically about the carbon tax): https://ecofiscal.ca/10-myths-about-...ing-in-canada/

This is precisely what I'm talking about.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

This is precisely what I'm talking about.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The reason why folks talk down condescendingly to conservatives is because they are extremely uninformed about the facts and the dire state we are in, as evidenced by your entire post (some of your suggestions are good start but they don't go nearly far and fast enough, while other things you say, like that "Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs", is a ridiculous and illogical argument). I'm not going to bother addressing each point of yours though because they have been discussed ad nauseam here, by researchers and climate scientists and in the media. Here is a start for you if you want to do your own research (this, specifically about the carbon tax): https://ecofiscal.ca/10-myths-about-...ing-in-canada/

The earth is in the centre of the solar system. That simply can not be questioned.

The authoritarian new left is so dogmatic as to reject outright any amount of evidence whatsoever to the contrary of their positions. They now consider the traditional left and moderates to be "far right", and they sometimes call themselves "liberals", a grammatical absurdity.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The earth is in the centre of the solar system. That simply can not be questioned.

The authoritarian new left is so dogmatic as to reject outright any amount of evidence whatsoever to the contrary of their positions. They now consider the traditional left and moderates to be "far right", and they sometimes call themselves "liberals", a grammatical absurdity.

What the fuck are you talking about? Don't mistake those on the left who are angry at the pussyfooting going on by the right on something this important, and the economists, the scientists - all the professionals who represent the entire political spectrum who have found and presented the evidence that is being ignored or obfuscated by a large portion of people on the right. The internet has made everyone, left and right more arrogant because they can find people and websites that support their world view but don't forget that facts tend to have a liberal-bias and that facts need real evidence, not just to make you feel fuzzy and warm, to make them facts. Ultimately, how about us laypeople posting here let the professionals do their job and stop listening to idiots out there who lack any real new evidence and who are just looking for attention or to get elected - I'm looking at you Randy.

Ps if your "earth is the centre of the solar system" statement is meant to discredit the current scientific and economic theories around climate change and carbon pricing, because they could change in the future, then you aren't really doing a good job at arguing your point. In fact, you are showing how great science is - that it is open minded and always open for new information. But really, we can only act on what we know now and, considering the evidence that has been piling up, and the fact Exxon new climate change was a pending disaster as early as the late 70s/early 80s, and the fact there are tens of thousands of scientists constantly researching and modelling climate change, we need to act NOW for the sake of our future generations, and any resistance without new evidence should be called out by everyone who cares about the future of our species (really, its about humans, because the Earth and other life will prevail).

Pps A general PSA to everyone: stop getting your news from Facebook and politicians. If you get your news from Facebook and politicians, you are less informed than you would be reading no news at all.

[StNorberter]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

The earth is in the centre of the solar system. That simply can not be questioned.

This might just be the stupidist thing I've ever read on the internet.

Do you believe the earth is a flat plate as well?

[Ando]

This whole thread is really just a thinly disguised political discussion so why not call it that? It has little to do with the environment and one certainly wouldn’t learn much about the science of climate change here. It’s not going to move the needle of knowledge very far. Seems pointless.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Ando

This whole thread is really just a thinly disguised political discussion so why not call it that? It has little to do with the environment and one certainly wouldn’t learn much about the science of climate change here. It’s not going to move the needle of knowledge very far. Seems pointless.

The sad thing is climate change should not be a political issue. It should be the one thing that brings us all together because not one person, rich or poor, Saskatchewanian or British Columbian, Canadian or Italian, will be uneffected by this. But because a certain segment of the population only reacts to direct effects, unable to see the forest for the trees, it becomes politicized by opportunistic parties who seek to profit and gain power from such ignorance, division and lack of cooperation.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

The sad thing is climate change should not be a political issue. It should be the one thing that brings us all together because not one person, rich or poor, Saskatchewanian or British Columbian, Canadian or Italian, will be uneffected by this. But because a certain segment of the population only reacts to direct effects, unable to see the forest for the trees, it becomes politicized by opportunistic parties who seek to profit and gain power from such ignorance, division and lack of cooperation.

Coming off the coldest winter in recent memory, give me an f’n break with your looney tunes doomsday nonsense. Have you ever noticed that the biggest climate change preachers always do the opposite of what they tell the rest of us to do? What do you drive? What do you heat your home with? What device did you use to post on this forum? I can’t wait to laugh at all you clowns 12 years from now when nothing has changed just like all the previous failed doomsday predictions. Just for fun, I’m gonna take my F-150 out for a rip for no reason because reading your cult-like nonsense just pissed my off. Cheers

[Migs]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Just for clarification the conservative parties in Canada have not really gone further right, in fact they slowly drift left as time goes on. On the other hand the parties on the left keep pushing further left which is why conservatives appear to be going further right. If you look at their stances on things nothing has really changed aside from being more open to things like gay rights.

Most conservatives don't deny that climate change is happening nor do they deny that there's a human contribution. But they're sick of being talked condescendingly to and being told that they're deniers like they don't believe the holocaust happened or something. I speak as a more conservatively minded person and I'm sick of the thinly veiled lie that somehow the government taking more of my money will fix this. It doesn't work. The money just goes into a black hole and facilitates more bureaucracy.

We all want the same thing, a clean environment. My suggestion is that we make plastic bags and other disposable packaging illegal for starters. Boom! easy and effective. Second, put in place some actual transit that would incentivize people to use their cars less. Provide a viable alternative and they'll do it voluntarily. Third, if we really care about the remaining emissions at that point, give research grants to companies involved in alternative propulsion methods.

Oh and by the way, Canada is not a net emitter of GHGs. We have such a large area of forest that that amount of carbon we emit is absorbed by trees many times over.

If you're serious about climate change you have to compel China and India to abandon coal. Nevermind all those developing African countries too. All I say to you us good luck convincing those places to go back to impoverishment.

Outstanding post!

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Migs

Coming off the coldest winter in recent memory, give me an f’n break with your looney tunes doomsday nonsense. Have you ever noticed that the biggest climate change preachers always do the opposite of what they tell the rest of us to do? What do you drive? What do you heat your home with? What device did you use to post on this forum? I can’t wait to laugh at all you clowns 12 years from now when nothing has changed just like all the previous failed doomsday predictions. Just for fun, I’m gonna take my F-150 out for a rip for no reason because reading your cult-like nonsense just pissed my off. Cheers

Unsurprising post from a Trump supporter filled with logical fallacies, a misunderstanding of weather vs climate, and of course, a rejection of science. Bravo.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Unsurprising post from a Trump supporter filled with logical fallacies, a misunderstanding of weather vs climate, and of course, a rejection of science. Bravo.

Exactly! The total misunderstanding and deliberate misrepresentation of all science that doesn't fit their world view is a signature trait of the far right. So are the ludicrous argument that, somehow, Canada shouldn't have to lift a finger to slow climate change until other polluters do something first.

They seem content with an insipid "I'm not going to act (on climate change), you act....why should I act, you're not acting....I'll act when you act...." dialogue. They might as well be saying "I'm not lowering the lifeboat, you lower the lifeboat....why should I lower the lifeboat...you're not lowering it...?" while the ship is sinking.

The reasons (that the right will ignore, of course) are that 1) as a contributor to climate change and as (currently) a country of grown-ups who acknowledge their responsibility, we have a responsibility to clean up our own patch, no matter what other folks are currently doing 2) by doing this we demonstrate to other countries that lowering one's "canon footprint" can be den and is beneficial and 3) by being a leader we develop and demonstrate clean technologies that will profit the country currently and in the future.

There's the word that the far-right always ignores in this argument.....profit!!!!$$$$$$ For a crew that seems to thrive on the notion of personal gain, the potential for profit from clean technologies is constantly ignored.

Canada could...and should...be making a bundle on developing clean technology and selling it around the world! I'm sure the "big polluters" would love to buy something that really works...after all, their own cities are sometimes choking n their own pollution. Instead, they keep on promoting oil as the only "sensible" option for the country and the world. Well, it's not "sensible" to keep on whipping a dying horse to make it pull the cart faster. Oil should, and IMO must, go the way of coal and become a peripheral industry if climate change is gong to be slowed to manageable levels and future generations have a decent planet to live on.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

Unsurprising post from a Trump supporter filled with logical fallacies, a misunderstanding of weather vs climate, and of course, a rejection of science. Bravo.

Yes the Trump administration, the one that has lowered their CO2 emissions moreso than most countries with climate taxes who are signed onto the Paris Agreement. And it’s funny how the climate fear-mongers like yourself say you can’t use weather events to disprove global warming but the first big rainfall or heatwave proves it. Laughable. Sorry to see you falling for this cult-like climate religion, you’d think most people would’ve leaned after the 6th or 7th false doomsday prediction passed. Gonna go outside & enjoy this beautiful spring day. Cheers.

[1ajs]

stop digging trenches u guys.

the real issue that really needs to be said is were looking at now not 20 years out 40 yrs out. government sure doesnt care much about that far out they are only concerned about now as thats what keeps u elected the fundimental flaw of democracy and the lack of proper action on this issue

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Migs

Yes the Trump administration, the one that has lowered their CO2 emissions moreso than most countries with climate taxes who are signed onto the Paris Agreement. And it’s funny how the climate fear-mongers like yourself say you can’t use weather events to disprove global warming but the first big rainfall or heatwave proves it. Laughable. Sorry to see you falling for this cult-like climate religion, you’d think most people would’ve leaned after the 6th or 7th false doomsday prediction passed. Gonna go outside & enjoy this beautiful spring day. Cheers.

Wrong. It’s patterns and frequency of weather and overall average temperatures that are pointed to in terms of weather identifying climate change. This information is freely accessible and fairly easy for anyone to understand if they really wanted to. I can see why a science-denier would be scared to accept it though as doing so would cause their entire world view to come crashing down.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

the real issue that really needs to be said is were looking at now not 20 years out 40 yrs out. government sure doesnt care much about that far out they are only concerned about now as thats what keeps u elected the fundimental flaw of democracy and the lack of proper action on this issue

This 100%. This is what leaders are supposed to help people see. But most of our politicians are not leaders nowadays. I don’t know what the answer is to always being reactionary.