Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[combusean]

It really looks like they're tabling it until their transportation plan is developed so I would assume, accordingly, that they're not going to make it a financial priority unless their transportation plan says it is.

Although Glendale's high sales tax probably precludes new taxes, 50 basis points of their 2.9% sales tax goes to a transportation fund that raises around 30 million a year. It could reauthorize in 2021 unless voters wanted relief from prior mismanagement.

Even if it was renewed, the best they could hope for is a line to downtown, and that's it. I would estimate $400 million to bring it in and the sales tax to raise, at most, $150 million with the rest coming from county and federal funds.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I agree. While I'm generally supportive of light rail expansion, Glendale is not in good financial condition and didn't seem to know exactly what it wanted from light rail. A lot of community leaders were advocating for a line to Westgate, despite the fragility of the sports sprawl economy out there. I think it would have been far better to serve more stable and established destinations along 59th Avenue, but that never seemed to be discussed.

My only concerns are the following:

1) I don't know if there will now be enough projected ridership to justify a shorter spur past GCU that doesn't continue into Glendale.

2) Light rail opponents will use this decision by Glendale to claim that Phoenix should abandon or curtail its own investment in rail transit. One already has:

https://twitter.com/SamThePol/status/922472735783116807

https://twitter.com/SamThePol/status/921136994037645312

Thankfully, his boss is outvoted 7-2 on this issue.

What a troll. Light rail is not going to be stopped for Phoenix's pension issues. This place isn't Stockton.

[biggus diggus]

If the train ran from Grand Canyon University to Downtown Glendale, what route would it take? Running it along Camelback or Grand would be quite a waste as neither would serve much of anything other than light industrial.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

If the train ran from Grand Canyon University to Downtown Glendale, what route would it take? Running it along Camelback or Grand would be quite a waste as neither would serve much of anything other than light industrial.

I think this is the most recent route:

http://www.valleymetro.org/images/up...Fact_Sheet.pdf

So Camelback --> 43rd Ave --> Glendale, and then jogging up to Glenn rather than going directly through downtown.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

If the train ran from Grand Canyon University to Downtown Glendale, what route would it take? Running it along Camelback or Grand would be quite a waste as neither would serve much of anything other than light industrial.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/...oute/84940344/

The proposed West Phoenix/Central Glendale route:

- From 19th Avenue, it would run 3 miles west along Camelback Road over Interstate 17, past Grand Canyon University and Alhambra High School to the three-way intersection of Camelback, and Grand and 43rd avenues.
- It would turn north and run 2 miles along 43rd Avenue to Glendale Avenue.
- Next, the line would go a mile west on Glendale Avenue to around 51st Avenue, just before the historical and narrow downtown section of Glendale Avenue.
- From there, it would go a block north to Glenn Drive and then turn west through a light-industrial and residential area to near Glendale Civic Center at 59th Avenue — or perhaps farther west over, or under, Grand Avenue and the BNSF rail line.

[muertecaza]

Latest Bike Share statistics for September for those interested:

http://www.tempe.gov/home/showdocument?id=55238

Total Trips in September: 7,503
Total Revenue: $17,822.00

Total number of trips jumped ~37% in September as compared to August, I'm assuming due to weather and ASU students coming back. Tempe accounts for about 3/4 of the increase in ridership month on month. All of the top 5 most used stations are in Tempe, and 7 or the top 10 are in Tempe. 7 of the bottom 10 least utilized stations are in Mesa.

[biggus diggus]

But 43rd and Camelback would, I think, be the most dangerous light rail station around. I have a couple of townhomes there and wow, it's easily the largest concentration of extreme poverty and crime I know of in this town.

On the plus side it would sure get a lot of use.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by combusean

What a troll. Light rail is not going to be stopped for Phoenix's pension issues. This place isn't Stockton.

Right! It will not going to stop. They should listen to those people. They want to bring light rail into Glendale. This is not problems about light rail. Don't try to talk about expensive light rail. Those college students had it right to ride on light rail. They want to go to school, college, and a few other, as well. They had respect that. They must accept it!

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

http://www.bike.cornell.edu/pdfs/Sid...biking_FAQ.pdf
"Bicycling on the sidewalk eliminates the relatively small danger to cyclists of crashes with overtaking motorists, but increases the potential for more common intersection collisions."

http://www.bikemn.org/education/minn...idewalk-riding
"Motorists are looking in the road and not for sidewalk traffic moving at high speeds, such as bicyclists. They often don't see bicyclists there, especially at driveways and intersections. Sidewalks themselves pose dangers to bicyclists. Poor maintenance, uneven surfaces, gaps, and pedestrians make sidewalks difficult and dangerous for bicycles to navigate."

http://mobikefed.org/2016/08/bicycli...ot-recommended
"MYTH: Riders are safest on the sidewalk. At first glance, it seems like bicyclists are safest on sidewalks, separated from automobile traffic. Riding on the sidewalk does reduce the incidence of crashes involving cars passing bicyclists, but sidewalk riders significantly increase the risk of being hit by turning drivers. A 2009 review of 23 studies on bicycling injuries found the best places for bicyclists to travel were protected bike lanes, closely followed by on-road bike lanes and separated bike paths. It turns out that the most dangerous way to ride is the way many of us were taught as kids: on the sidewalk against the flow of traffic."

This isn't really debatable. Bicycling on the sidewalk is a really good way to get hit by a car.

I think you misinterpreted the point I was making. Cycling closer to traffic or within traffic without physical barriers is more dangerous than the alternative.

Not all bike lanes are created equal. A bike lane created on 15th Ave a couple blocks with new paint and a few of those plastic thingies is not the same as a dedicated bikeway along a major thoroughfare that has physical barriers like concrete walls, planters or using parallel parked cars to separate traffic from cyclists.

FTR: I use my bike often for recreation.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

I think you misinterpreted the point I was making. Cycling closer to traffic or within traffic without physical barriers is more dangerous than the alternative.

no. It isn't. Cycling on the road with traffic is safer than cycling on the sidewalk in 100% of instances. If you're on the sidewalk every single time you cross a road or driveway you are flirting with turning cars who simply do not look for you. Do you need more links to actual research? It doesn't matter if the bike lane is protected or not, or if there even is a bike lane. The sidewalk is still more dangerous.

If you want to play the FTR game then I'll just drop the fact that I have well over 50K miles on the road and a vast amount of racing experience. I assure you, based on this conversation, you know very little about bicycling safety.

[Ballister]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

no. It isn't. Cycling on the road with traffic is safer than cycling on the sidewalk in 100% of instances. If you're on the sidewalk every single time you cross a road or driveway you are flirting with turning cars who simply do not look for you. Do you need more links to actual research? It doesn't matter if the bike lane is protected or not, or if there even is a bike lane. The sidewalk is still more dangerous.

If you want to play the FTR game then I'll just drop the fact that I have well over 50K miles on the road and a vast amount of racing experience. I assure you, based on this conversation, you know very little about bicycling safety.

That quote is simply bizarre and f'ing hilarious. 50K on the roads and vast racing experience! My oh my. You are shameless.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

no. It isn't. Cycling on the road with traffic is safer than cycling on the sidewalk in 100% of instances. If you're on the sidewalk every single time you cross a road or driveway you are flirting with turning cars who simply do not look for you. Do you need more links to actual research? It doesn't matter if the bike lane is protected or not, or if there even is a bike lane. The sidewalk is still more dangerous.

4000 pedestrians are killed each year in the US.

Why have sidewalks at all then? Maybe we should just have people walk in the streets with traffic, bc sidewalks are dangerous and difficult to see those pedestrians. Phoenix isn't really a pedestrian city anyways, so why waste precious funds on arbitrary lanes along 15th avenue. The city should fund legit thoroughfares along heavily used routes.

Cycling with traffic is more dangerous than without. Phoenix should focus on building separated bikeways. Those are much much more safe than 15th ave bike lanes.

[exit2lef]

90% of the time, I would agree with biggus. The sidewalk is fine for pedestrians. In fact, it should be their protected space. It's usually not a good place for bicycles because motorists seldom expect something moving as fast as a bicycle to approach from that angle. That said, nothing is absolute. Last night, I rode home from Biltmore Fashion Park. The segment of 24th Street from there up to the Arizona Canal has a long sidewalk with few, if any, pedestrians and no driveway interruptions. In that situation, I made the decision that riding along that sidewalk was safer than claiming a lane on 24th Street. I'll use a bike lane whenever it's provided, and I'll claim a lane on local streets. Last night was one case, however, in which a little sidewalk riding made a lot of sense. While I generally don't recommend sidewalk riding, especially against traffic, we shouldn't shame non-vehicular cyclists for using the sidewalk when that behavior may simply be a response to inadequate infrastructure.

[biggus diggus]

you're right, exit2lef, I shouldn't have made such a 100% blanket statement. Riding on the sidewalk on NB 24th Street between Thunderbird Trail and the canal is probably the safest option.

And ballister, I'm not sure what you see wrong with my statement. If Sun Belt wanted to swing around his experience to try to validate his point (which is indisputably wrong if you do ANY reading on the subject) I will win that game all day long.

[exit2lef]

Back to the Glendale light rail issue, here's the video of the council discussion and vote:

http://glendale-az.granicus.com/Medi...&clip_id=2718#

The main problem seems to be that funding is available only to build light rail to 51st Ave / Glendale, which is essentially the eastern end of Downtown Glendale. Some council members felt that light rail would inevitably have to extend west of Grand Avenue on its way to Westgate and feared paying the bill for that. Of course, there were plenty of other arguments based on perceptions surrounding crime, ridership, and competing needs.

[Ballister]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

you're right, exit2lef, I shouldn't have made such a 100% blanket statement. Riding on the sidewalk on NB 24th Street between Thunderbird Trail and the canal is probably the safest option.

And ballister, I'm not sure what you see wrong with my statement. If Sun Belt wanted to swing around his experience to try to validate his point (which is indisputably wrong if you do ANY reading on the subject) I will win that game all day long.

Yes, Mr. President.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

you're right, exit2lef, I shouldn't have made such a 100% blanket statement. Riding on the sidewalk on NB 24th Street between Thunderbird Trail and the canal is probably the safest option.

And ballister, I'm not sure what you see wrong with my statement. If Sun Belt wanted to swing around his experience to try to validate his point (which is indisputably wrong if you do ANY reading on the subject) I will win that game all day long.

I've actually seen plenty of riders killed from behind strikes and have been "swiped" myself by mirrors a couple of times here in Phoenix which has completely scared me off the roads. So, I will choose to ride the sidewalk if I absolutely have to if there are no bike lanes on the road.

With that being said, riding on a sidewalk is the responsibility of the rider and the rider needs to be 100% aware of his surroundings while on the sidewalk. I slow down for every single driveway and crosswalk to avoid not being seen by drivers. I would also like to point out that nearly every multi-use path in Scottsdale shares the path with a sidewalk at some point or another...especially along Pima and Hayden.

I do agree with you, the average Joe should not ride on the sidewalks. But an experienced rider should no better that if he does, he has the responsibility to watch for traffic and it can be done safely without interfering with right of way traffic.

On a side note...good that you ride so much! I myself ride 30 to 50 per day

[exit2lef]

Interesting blog post comparing a decision to proceed with a light rail extension in the Sydney suburbs with Glendale's recent decision.

https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/lig...-rapid-transit

[Sun Belt]

Ok, I think we can all agree that this is safer than what is being installed on 15th ave.




Biking on the street, protected by a physical barrier, separated from the sidewalk. More of this should be installed in Metro Phoenix on busy thoroughfares.

That physical barrier could also come in the form of parallel parked cars also.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Ok, I think we can all agree that this is safer than what is being installed on 15th ave.




Biking on the street, protected by a physical barrier, separated from the sidewalk. More of this should be installed in Metro Phoenix on busy thoroughfares.

That physical barrier could also come in the form of parallel parked cars also.

Yes, that's what we really need. I'd love to see that done on Fillmore between Central and 7th Street. The green lanes and sharrows there are a start, but given the relatively low volume of traffic on Fillmore, we would take away a travel lane on each side without inducing carmaggedon. It would then become a protected corridor connecting ASU Downtown to the Phoenix Biomedical Campus.