Any American cities moving up a tier?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

Not sure I agree with this. Hoboken has been around as a ''cool'' neighborhood for probably since the mid 90s. There is little space for growth, which is fine and will continue to increase property values and scarcity. Hoboken is also looked at as being fratty and ''Bro-ey'' with a quite specific demographic (ie, suburban whites who are now urban). Jersey City is the most diverse city racially and ethnically in The United States, according to multiple studies. Also, it attracts people from all over the world in significant numbers, unlike Hoboken.

While it's undeniable that Hoboken is desirable, it has less potential than Jersey City as a whole and Jersey City is quickly overtaking Hoboken as the 'darling' of Hudson County.

If you look at data, sales prices in Downtown Jersey City properties are actually higher per square foot than in Hoboken nowadays. This happened around summer 2018. Also, Jersey City is clearly much larger than Hoboken. JC's downtown area is about double the land area of all of Hoboken. Jersey City is about 21 square miles- for reference point all of Manhattan is 22 square miles. Hoboken is 2 square miles and functions more like a neighborhood (with a somewhat west-villagy vibe) rather than an independent city.
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I think we're in agreement. Jersey City is the king of Hudson County, but I think Hoboken has been the darling child for a long time. It is very much post-gentrification and overall more affluent than Jersey City, and is pretty much an outpost of Manhattan's West Village.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Walking north-south Mass Ave from Dorchester through Back Bay and into Cambridge, unless you want to discount this because you cross the Charles River, will take a good 2 hours.

Or Beacon Street from the Statehouse west until you hit Boston College in Brookline. That's 30,000 pp sq+ the entire way.

3 hours though? Nope. That's just NYC I'm guessing.

6 miles from Melnea Cass (edge of Dorchester) through the edge of Cambridge. Goes by/through Boston Medical Center, South End, Christian Science Center area (near Pru/1 Dalton), Back Bay, Mass Ave Bridge, MIT, Central Square (Cambridge), Harvard Square (Cambridge), Porter Square (Cambridge) to near the edge of the Arlington line. Very strong unbroken pedestrian urbanity for the full stretch.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0


Another one is you can walk all the way down Washington Street from Roslindale to Government Center and that's over 7 miles of urbanity.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.2...9e09ad!1m0!3e2


Overall it can be a little bit difficult to find single street stretches that go on for huge mileage because of the non-linear layout of the roads and landscape, but you can do different urban walks for ages and ages. For instance, in the one above, it's another mile+ into Charlestown, which remains essentially unbroken urbanity. Somerville, Cambridge, and Brookline are all dense urban centers that are essentially all part of the same single city (ie Boston), only with separate governing bodies.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by DZH22

6 miles from Melnea Cass (edge of Dorchester) through the edge of Cambridge. Goes by/through Boston Medical Center, South End, Christian Science Center area (near Pru/1 Dalton), Back Bay, Mass Ave Bridge, MIT, Central Square (Cambridge), Harvard Square (Cambridge), Porter Square (Cambridge) to near the edge of the Arlington line. Very strong unbroken pedestrian urbanity for the full stretch.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.3...a=!4m2!4m1!3e0


Another one is you can walk all the way down Washington Street from Roslindale to Government Center and that's over 7 miles of urbanity.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.2...9e09ad!1m0!3e2


Overall it can be a little bit difficult to find single street stretches that go on for huge mileage because of the non-linear layout of the roads and landscape, but you can do different urban walks for ages and ages. For instance, in the one above, it's another mile+ into Charlestown, which remains essentially unbroken urbanity. Somerville, Cambridge, and Brookline are all dense urban centers that are essentially all part of the same single city (ie Boston), only with separate governing bodies.

Yeah, realistically speaking you can walk from Malden Center to somewhere in Roslindale, and other than the bridges over the Charles and Mystic, you don't have to step outside a Census tract of less than 30,000 pp sq mile. Google Maps' Walk mode says this is an 11.5 mile walk and should take just under 4 hours. That will take you through some of the highest quality urban walking in the country.

Google Maps also says walking from Battery Park City to Hudson Heights via Broadway for basically the entire way is 11.1 miles and should also take just under 4 hours. Needless to say, that's a whole other level of urbanity. Overlaying Manhattan on Chicago, SF, Philly, Boston, and DC shows just how much greater NY's scale really is.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Google Maps also says walking from Battery Park City to Hudson Heights via Broadway for basically the entire way is 11.1 miles and should also take just under 4 hours. Needless to say, that's a whole other level of urbanity. Overlaying Manhattan on Chicago, SF, Philly, Boston, and DC shows just how much greater NY's scale really is.

I did this once but going the opposite direction. From Hudson Heights (where I live) to Battery Park, pretty much nonstop except once or twice to buy some water, took me 4 hours indeed. My legs felt like jello by the end of it and I took the train back up home.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I did this once but going the opposite direction. From Hudson Heights (where I live) to Battery Park, pretty much nonstop except once or twice to buy some water, took me 4 hours indeed. My legs felt like jello by the end of it and I took the train back up home.

Good call on taking the train back up; looks like the walk back would have been steadily up hill. I didn't realize how much the elevation changes in that upper part of Manhattan. I guess neighborhood names like Washington Heights and Hudson Heights should have tipped me off.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Good call on taking the train back up; looks like the walk back would have been steadily up hill. I didn't realize how much the elevation changes in that upper part of Manhattan. I guess neighborhood names like Washington Heights and Hudson Heights should have tipped me off.

Upper Manhattan, from Columbia University area north, and the entire West Bronx, extending into Westchester, has some very steep hills. Step streets are everywhere.

[McBane]

Having been the one who brought up Hudson County last week, I f just want to clarify my post.

All I was saying was that if Hudson County was a single city (with parts of Jersey City standing in as "downtown"), it would be on par with Philly, Chicago, DC, SF, and Boston and nobody would think twice or debate it. People don't think of Hudson County because, individually, those cities (even JC) are small.

Tier 1
NYC

Tier 2 (in no particular order)
Boston
Philly
Hudson County
DC
SF
Chicago

Tier 3
Seattle, et. al.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by McBane

All I was saying was that if Hudson County was a single city (with parts of Jersey City standing in as "downtown"), it would be on par with Philly, Chicago, DC, SF, and Boston and nobody would think twice or debate it.

right. anytime you can squeeze 700,000 americans into 46 sq. miles of land, that's gonna be a very noteworthy slice of american urbanism no matter how you look at it.

the problem for hudson county ever gaining a higher profile is two fold:

1. counties generally don't get much branding traction in our society. cities are what matter.

2. being located directly across the river from one of our planet's mightiest cities that casts one hell of a gigantic shadow. even if it were amalgamated into a single city, hudson county would still forever be lumped in with the rest of the NYC juggernaut in "6th borough" territory, not really its own stand alone thing.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by McBane

Having been the one who brought up Hudson County last week, I f just want to clarify my post.

All I was saying was that if Hudson County was a single city (with parts of Jersey City standing in as "downtown"), it would be on par with Philly, Chicago, DC, SF, and Boston and nobody would think twice or debate it. People don't think of Hudson County because, individually, those cities (even JC) are small.

It might look that way on paper, but Hudson County operates more like a borough than it does as its own economic hub. Jersey City is the biggest population center, but I don't think it really acts as a hub in the way that most of us think of CBDs. I don't think it is fair to say that it would be on par with cities like Philadelphia, Chicago, SF, etc., because of that.

I would argue that Brooklyn is more distinct than Jersey City/Hudson County, and if it were its own city it would easily be the #2 most urban place in the U.S.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

I did this once but going the opposite direction. From Hudson Heights (where I live) to Battery Park, pretty much nonstop except once or twice to buy some water, took me 4 hours indeed. My legs felt like jello by the end of it and I took the train back up home.

I'll be back in NYC in a couple months, and one of my definite "to do's" while there is to bike the length of Manhattan (top to bottom of course, I ain't trying to go uphill ). Should be a good ride.

[Crawford]

Broadway itself only has one steep hill, north of Columbia. Most of Broadway in Upper Manhattan sits in a valley, so it would probably only be marginally more strenuous to walk the length uptown.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I'll be back in NYC in a couple months, and one of my definite "to do's" while there is to bike the length of Manhattan (top to bottom of course, I ain't trying to go uphill ). Should be a good ride.

The hills aren't that bad. If you use the Hudson River Greenway it's just one or two very abrupt changes in elevation, but 99% of the ride is flat. You can walk your bike up the hill.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

I'm not sure, but in all reality it will probably never happen. Definitely a pipe dream, sadly.

It makes sense from a financial standpoint. If they merge all municipalities, it would likely cut the property tax rate (which is extremely high, like all of New Jersey), and make other issues easier to handle. But this will likely never happen.



Not sure I agree with this. Hoboken has been around as a ''cool'' neighborhood for probably since the mid 90s. There is little space for growth, which is fine and will continue to increase property values and scarcity. Hoboken is also looked at as being fratty and ''Bro-ey'' with a quite specific demographic (ie, suburban whites who are now urban). Jersey City is the most diverse city racially and ethnically in The United States, according to multiple studies. Also, it attracts people from all over the world in significant numbers, unlike Hoboken.

While it's undeniable that Hoboken is desirable, it has less potential than Jersey City as a whole and Jersey City is quickly overtaking Hoboken as the 'darling' of Hudson County.

If you look at data, sales prices in Downtown Jersey City properties are actually higher per square foot than in Hoboken nowadays. This happened around summer 2018. Also, Jersey City is clearly much larger than Hoboken. JC's downtown area is about double the land area of all of Hoboken. Jersey City is about 21 square miles- for reference point all of Manhattan is 22 square miles. Hoboken is 2 square miles and functions more like a neighborhood (with a somewhat west-villagy vibe) rather than an independent city.
__

you got it 100% -- just to take it back a bit further, hoboken is really charming, but was never cool. it was a post collegiate yuppie area for move-ins in the 1980s, so it was thought of at that time as very similar to murray hill, its counterpart in manhattan. today, both are well gentrified beyond those days, albeit now with a lot of starter families and legacy melanin challenged bros. there was just nothing on the jc waterfront to even be in the game back then and the rest of jc was seen as an extension of newark. the tide has certainly turned over there!

[dubu]

i dont think size matters, its how efficient the city is. new york and other big cities waist a lot of money because people are stuck in traffic. sky scrapers take a lot to heat or cool too.

[ATLMidcity]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

right. anytime you can squeeze 700,000 americans into 46 sq. miles of land, that's gonna be a very noteworthy slice of american urbanism no matter how you look at it.

the problem for hudson county ever gaining a higher profile is two fold:

1. counties generally don't get much branding traction in our society. cities are what matter.

2. being located directly across the river from one of our planet's mightiest cities that casts one hell of a gigantic shadow. even if it were amalgamated into a single city, hudson county would still forever be lumped in with the rest of the NYC juggernaut in "6th borough" territory, not really its own stand alone thing.

Everybody knows NYC's 6th borough is Atlanta, GA.
There are more former 'black' New Yorkers relocating to this metro than probably any other U.S. metro.

Please help Georgia turn blue. It's long overdue.

[Trae]

Originally Posted by JManc

There's a few things going up downtown but most of the activity seems to be outside of downtown. At least for now. If oil prices remain low, downtown could slow down for a while.

Yeah theoretically they could but even though oil prices have been low for three years now, the developments seem to be ramping up. Urban living has gotten a lot more popular in Houston to the point where it looks like the city is playing catch-up with itself because the demand was higher than thought. Another is the luxury hotel market which has been booming in Houston the last 3-4 years with no signs of slowing down. All this happening with a slowed down Houston economy which is no secret. Imagine when the city/metro booms again...

To answer the thread question, Houston-Dallas/Fort Worth-Atlanta-Miami will continue to move up the ranks and all four for different reasons (though DFW and Atlanta have the most similar reasons being inland domestic general economy centers).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

Everybody knows NYC's 6th borough is Atlanta, GA.

"everybody" knows that?

it's first time i've ever heard it.

the most common geographies i've heard associated with the term "6th borough" are:

Hudson County, NJ
Philadelphia
South Florida

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

Everybody knows NYC's 6th borough is Atlanta, GA.
There are more former 'black' New Yorkers relocating to this metro than probably any other U.S. metro.

Please help Georgia turn blue. It's long overdue.

Never heard that Atlanta is the sixth borough. Also, black people from the north have been migrating to Atlanta from every big northern city.

[Londonee]

In Philly, walking Broad Street is easily over 10 miles and 3+ hours of pure urbanity. Another interesting and weirdly historic walk - would be Germantown Ave from Chestnut Hill to its terminus at Front Street in Northern Liberties - about 10.5 miles. In fact, I think there's a photo tour of just that walk on SSP someplace.

[liat91]

Originally Posted by McBane

Having been the one who brought up Hudson County last week, I f just want to clarify my post.

All I was saying was that if Hudson County was a single city (with parts of Jersey City standing in as "downtown"), it would be on par with Philly, Chicago, DC, SF, and Boston and nobody would think twice or debate it. People don't think of Hudson County because, individually, those cities (even JC) are small.

Tier 1
NYC

Tier 2 (in no particular order)
Boston
Philly
Hudson County
DC
SF
Chicago

Tier 3
Seattle, et. al.

Good one, lol. Every time I drive by Newport mall in JC, I think about how it equates to the Miracle Mile in Chicago or Union Square in San Francisco.

Hudson county is a natural extension of NYC. It would never exist the way it does otherwise.

I really like Hoboken though. If it weren’t for the projects on the west side it would match any wealthy suburb demographically, which would probably make it way to boring.