The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JHikka

We're in the last year of F1 on TSN under the current agreement. Can't imagine it stays there after 2019.

On the other hand. What else are they going to show at those times?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

On the other hand. What else are they going to show at those times?

Re-runs of Sportscentre?

[JHikka]

Chris Dunne @Chris_Dunne 11 hours ago
Canadian Ratings
Raps Regular Season Average Viewership - Approx 500k (est)
Raps Round 1 - Approx 800K
Raps Round 2 - Approx 1.1 million
Raps Round 3 - Approx 2.1 million
NBA Finals - Approx 4 million (est)
NBA Finals Game 6 - 7.7 million
#WeTheNorh #NBAFinal2019 #Raptors

[JHikka]

https://business.financialpost.com/n...e-french-fries

McDonald’s reveals the damage of Raptors’ historic run: more than 2.5 million free french fries

Response to the Ontario promotion nearly quadrupled McDonald's forecast, totalling more than half a million in the playoffs alone

...

McDonald’s chose to partner with the Raptors, and not the Toronto Maple Leafs, because they thought Raptors fans were more inclined to use the app.

“The Raptors demographic and fan base is much more digital native than say a team like the Toronto Maple Leafs,” Chuck Coolen, head of marketing for Eastern Canada, told the Financial Post earlier this month.

[JHikka]

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseba...-historic-lows


Yes, as Canada Day weekend approaches, the Blue Jays are midway through one of the worst attended seasons in franchise history, with their struggles at the gate mirroring those on the field.

Through the 38 home dates thus far, a disheartening run of baseball in which they’ve struggled to a 13-25 mark on their own turf, the Jays are averaging a mere 20,420 per game.

That’s already the third worst in Rogers Centre history, but well within range of eclipsing the low-water mark of 19,173 set in 2010.

Perhaps more stark, the current average is less than half the 41,878 that filled the aging dome as recently as 2015, the first of back-to-back seasons in which the Jays led the American League in attendance.

---------

Not overly surprising given MLB's cyclical nature.

[snowmobile]

Attendance Averages so far:

College Wood Bat Summer Baseball

Wheat City Whiskey Jacks (Brandon, Manitoba) - Expedition League : 347
Thunder Bay Border Cats - Northwoods League : 826
Victoria Harbourcats - West Coast League : 2,381

Western Canadian Baseball League attendance link:
http://baseball.pointstreak.com/atte...seasonid=32263

Independent Baseball

Winnipeg Goldeyes - American Association: 3,625 (5,705 in 2012)
Ottawa Champions - CanAm League: 1,586
Quebec Capitales - CanAm League: 1,460
Trois Rivieres Aigles - CanAm League: 1,326

Canadian Elite Basketball League is averaging roughly 1,658 people per game according to user ThatOtherGuy on CEBL's reddit page. It's going to be tough to sustain a cross country league with those kind of numbers.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseba...-historic-lows


Yes, as Canada Day weekend approaches, the Blue Jays are midway through one of the worst attended seasons in franchise history, with their struggles at the gate mirroring those on the field.

Through the 38 home dates thus far, a disheartening run of baseball in which they’ve struggled to a 13-25 mark on their own turf, the Jays are averaging a mere 20,420 per game.

That’s already the third worst in Rogers Centre history, but well within range of eclipsing the low-water mark of 19,173 set in 2010.

Perhaps more stark, the current average is less than half the 41,878 that filled the aging dome as recently as 2015, the first of back-to-back seasons in which the Jays led the American League in attendance.

---------

Not overly surprising given MLB's cyclical nature.

Wow it’s hard to believe interest in baseball has declined so much in TO, especially in such short time, since its highs in 2015, its trended down every year since... will baseball survive in TO? especially with TFC and MLS soccer becoming so huge, it seems fans are taking advantage of so many more options in TO.

[thurmas]

with the continuing increase in immigration to canada's major urban centres it really feels like the old traditional sports in canada are in decline or dying ie: hockey, baseball, and football while basketball, soccer and even cricket and rugby are growing in popularity.

[Djeffery]

The Jays have done zippo to capitalize on that 2 year run in 2015-16. They brought in the Cleveland crew as President and GM, who have also done nothing to endear themselves to the fans. Alex put together a winning team for the first time in decades and then he's gone. People were pissed. The new guys had no personality, certainly not like Beeston and Alex.

Rogers is also way over extended on that ridiculous NHL rights deal that they can't afford to do anything with the Jays. What happened to the big renovation at the dome, which was one of the main reasons Shapiro was brought in (due to his experience re-imagining the Indians ballpark)? They are cutting salary wherever they can (hell, they even fired their premier media personality in Bob McCown). Fortunately they are only just above a third of MLSE or that parade last week would never have happened either. Blue Jays attendance history has shown that they draw well when they are competitive, and they don't draw well when they aren't (outside of the obvious novelty of the early seasons, in that crappy stadium). But this is the problem when a public corporation runs a sports team. An owner can tell his baseball people to ratchet up the spending and make a run and it's his or her money, not affecting shareholders.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Wow it’s hard to believe interest in baseball has declined so much in TO, especially in such short time, since its highs in 2015, its trended down every year since... will baseball survive in TO? especially with TFC and MLS soccer becoming so huge, it seems fans are taking advantage of so many more options in TO.

If the Jays are above .500 crowds are fine. MLB is cyclical in nature and that goes for gates, too. It's a baseball-wide issue and less a Jays issue regarding getting people out to games. I don't see it as baseball declining in interest in Toronto - it's mostly just the team being actually dreadful.

Other teams will get squeezed out of the market before the Jays are. Junior hockey has already been squeezed out of Toronto.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

If the Jays are above .500 crowds are fine. MLB is cyclical in nature and that goes for gates, too. It's a baseball-wide issue and less a Jays issue regarding getting people out to games. I don't see it as baseball declining in interest in Toronto - it's mostly just the team being actually dreadful.

Other teams will get squeezed out of the market before the Jays are. Junior hockey has already been squeezed out of Toronto.

Weird how that same logic doesn’t apply to CFL. Argos are dreadful and the crowds reflect that. MTL is dreadful and their crowds reflect that. BC has been dreadful and their crowds reflect that. But people say it’s because interest is in decline in those cities, that people are interested in other sports, namely the massive interest TFC and MTL have had in TO. Those 3 cities have had mediocre to poor performance on the field for the last number of years, and their attendance is simply a reflection of that.

Expect the jays attendance to dwindle in the coming years too due too poor performance, but people will always reason it is simply due to poor product on the field. That logic simply does not suffice for the CFL tho, apparently.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Weird how that same logic doesn’t apply to CFL. Argos are dreadful and the crowds reflect that. MTL is dreadful and their crowds reflect that. BC has been dreadful and their crowds reflect that.

The Argos won the Grey Cup in 2017 but sure, they've been dreadful.

If your baseball team is bad you have 80+ dates to fill, back-to-back and half through the week. There's going to be holes. On the flip side, if your football team is bad, you have eight/nine dates to fill, mostly on weekends.

Originally Posted by Hackslack

But people say it’s because interest is in decline in those cities, that people are interested in other sports, namely the massive interest TFC and MTL have had in TO. Those 3 cities have had mediocre to poor performance on the field for the last number of years, and their attendance is simply a reflection of that.

It's almost certainly a factor of:

• The teams being bad (relatively speaking);
• Lack of interest in the sport either as a whole or vis-a-vis NFL;
• General CFL demographics;
• Crammed entertainment markets.

Hamilton failed to sell out their Friday night, Canada Day long weekend game and they're undefeated and absolutely smacking teams. I don't think this has much to do with whether the team is good or not. It's mostly about providing an entertaining product.

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Expect the jays attendance to dwindle in the coming years too due too poor performance, but people will always reason it is simply due to poor product on the field. That logic simply does not suffice for the CFL tho, apparently.

Jays attendance has already dwindled down likely to its floor. The team can't get any worse than it is right now.

The difference between the Jays and the CFL is that the Jays don't rely on gate receipts as heavily as CFL teams do - their revenues are more weighted on both corporate and broadcast, meaning that smaller crowds don't necessarily hurt the team as much as they would hurt a CFL team.

This is only strictly looking at physical crowds, though. There are obviously other ways to gauge revenue generation beyond simply butts in seats. Baseball's in this weird spot right now where they are going to have to come up with ideas on getting people out to games, changing the schedule, or altering the sport to continue garnering interest. It's quickly losing ground on others.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Argos won the Grey Cup in 2017 but sure, they've been dreadful.

If your baseball team is bad you have 80+ dates to fill, back-to-back and half through the week. There's going to be holes. On the flip side, if your football team is bad, you have eight/nine dates to fill, mostly on weekends.

That's the thing with the Jays... as bad as their attendance is, they still get roughly 5k more attendance per game than the Argos - and do it across 81 games. It's much easier for the Argos to have higher attendance since they have a much higher chance at making the playoffs - especially with how bad the East division normally is. The Jays could essentially be out of playoff contention with half a season left - so that's about 40 home games of trying to fill seats to watch a team that has no hope.

And as mentioned, the Argos won the Grey Cup twice in the last 7 years, and won just 2 years ago. Losing isn't the problem - it's the product.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by JHikka

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseba...-historic-lows


Yes, as Canada Day weekend approaches, the Blue Jays are midway through one of the worst attended seasons in franchise history, with their struggles at the gate mirroring those on the field.

Through the 38 home dates thus far, a disheartening run of baseball in which they’ve struggled to a 13-25 mark on their own turf, the Jays are averaging a mere 20,420 per game.

That’s already the third worst in Rogers Centre history, but well within range of eclipsing the low-water mark of 19,173 set in 2010.

Perhaps more stark, the current average is less than half the 41,878 that filled the aging dome as recently as 2015, the first of back-to-back seasons in which the Jays led the American League in attendance.

---------

Not overly surprising given MLB's cyclical nature.

From that article:

“From a business perspective, we try to understand the fans. We don’t get focused on (team performance.) It’s more on (finding a way of) impacting fans in a positive manner and looking for ways for the fan base to be excited about the environment.”


lol what?! If the team is not competitive and they are playing in the 2nd worst facility in all of MLB, it is pretty hard to impact fans in a positive manner. Oh, and having ticket prices that actually reflect the demand in the market would help to. Miller and Shapiro have failed badly at this. $120 for seats by the foul poles, $70 bleacher seats (probably the worst bleacher seats in all of baseball) for a Canada Day game that may have its worst attendance since the days of Exhibition Stadium. It's reveals how badly they gauged the market or perhaps they are completely out of touch.

Many of their games are outrageously priced despite having one of the worst lineups in MLB. It will be interesting to see if they will drop prices for most games next season or if they will continue to live in denial about the lack of demand. It will also be interesting if Rogers will put pressure on them to sign some free agents (unfortunately with Shapiro in charge that likely means signing some over-the-hill player or a player who had those one or two good seasons a few years back with the hope of him rediscovering that magic on a "value contract) to bring the team back to the realm of "competitiveness."

If they just continue to rely on value signings and draft and develop strategy, it is likely the attendance will decline to 15,000 next season.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Wow it’s hard to believe interest in baseball has declined so much in TO, especially in such short time, since its highs in 2015, its trended down every year since... will baseball survive in TO? especially with TFC and MLS soccer becoming so huge, it seems fans are taking advantage of so many more options in TO.

TFC attendance has declined the past 2 seasons. Not one sellout yet this year. When the team isn't very good attendance suffers. It is quite apparent MLSE made a mistake in expanding BMO Field to 30,000. The demand for the product does not warrant it.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Berklon

And as mentioned, the Argos won the Grey Cup twice in the last 7 years, and won just 2 years ago. Losing isn't the problem - it's the product.

Sorry but that is poseur BS, the "product" is a lot closer to the NFL than TFC is to the EPL, and I honestly don't intend to demean TFC with that, just the poseurs. The Argos have had some crazy disconnect with Toronto in the past decade, they did outdraw TFC for the first ten years of their existence.

Berkie, you posted that I get upset when people don't like what I like, that's not true, I get upset when non sports fans use the bullshit "not the best" argument. That screams to me, not a fan but a water cooler talk wannabe who doesn't have enough scope to enjoy sport at all levels. You sure as hell wouldn't see an American football fan doing that.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

Weird how that same logic doesn’t apply to CFL. Argos are dreadful and the crowds reflect that. MTL is dreadful and their crowds reflect that. BC has been dreadful and their crowds reflect that. But people say it’s because interest is in decline in those cities, that people are interested in other sports, namely the massive interest TFC and MTL have had in TO. Those 3 cities have had mediocre to poor performance on the field for the last number of years, and their attendance is simply a reflection of that.

Expect the jays attendance to dwindle in the coming years too due too poor performance, but people will always reason it is simply due to poor product on the field. That logic simply does not suffice for the CFL tho, apparently.

I don't think interest in MLS soccer is that high in Montreal. Average crowds have declined by nearly 3,000 this season and their average currently sits at 15,000 - among the worst in MLS. This is with a winning team in second place and fairly cheap tickets too. Summer crowds will help a bit, but not that much...maybe boost the average by 1,000. The owner has lost tens of millions on the team (he lost 11 million last year alone) and if he doesn't get the needed improvements to Saputo Stadium in a few years, the team is likely off to the US. There are many markets there with concrete plans for state-of-the-art soccer specific stadiums.

[elly63]

That's what gets me, there are tons of people who could care less if the Argos failed, the oldest pro franchise in North America (or something to that effect) and even worse some campaign for it to fail. I can't understand that. I would never want the Impact to fail and I don't have much interest in following MLS regularly.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by elly63

That's what gets me, there are tons of people who could care less if the Argos failed, the oldest pro franchise in North America (or something to that effect) and even worse some campaign for it to fail. I can't understand that. I would never want the Impact to fail and I don't have much interest in following MLS regularly.

I don't understand the 'competition' (for lack of a better word) between the various sports leagues as if they're interchangeable.

I can like leagues X, Y and Z. Liking X doesn't preclude me from liking Y or Z. Nor will league X failing cause its fans to immediately jump ship to Y and Z.

I can like both the sushi place and the steakhouse in my town. They compete in the sense that they're restaurants, but I imagine they each have a clientele that may (or may not) have taste overlap.

[elly63]

^Yup