Sports in Canadian culture

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ It's too bad that the VC couldn't be held at the stadium of one of the competing teams. I can tell you a VC would be a tough sell in Winnipeg... I doubt you'd get more than 10,000 fans out unless the Bisons or maybe one of the Sask teams made it. By contrast, if the Bisons were playing, they'd get north of 20,000 fans.

I guess the challenge there is when you have only one game to decide a winner, how do you decide which of the competing teams gets to host?

The Vanier Cup will always have that problem until Canadians get used to seeing CIS Football on television on a regular basis and it gets good coverage on nightly sports casts. If people in Hamilton were familiar with the Laval and Calgary football teams, players, and coaches from good media coverage attendance wouldn't have been as dismal as it was.

This isn't a quick fix but if we ever want U Sports to reach its potential/get the support it deserves it has to start with Canadian media outlets.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by isaidso

The Vanier Cup will always have that problem until Canadians get used to seeing CIS Football on television on a regular basis and it gets good coverage on nightly sports casts. If people in Hamilton were familiar with the Laval and Calgary football teams, players, and coaches from good media coverage attendance wouldn't have been as dismal as it was.

This isn't a quick fix but if we ever want U Sports to reach its potential/get the support it deserves it has to start with Canadian media outlets.

if we take the NCAA, you have more than 150 cities that embrace the sport, you have something that can sell very well. Here in Canada, you have maybe 4-5 teams that are at the top, and that's it. College football (NCAA) is bigger than the NFL.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by elly63

Funny you say that because in the wannabe GTA (and that is where this attitude is most prevalent) think of MLS. Who are TFC's biggest rivals? NY, LA, Chicago? Nope!

What about the NHL, who are the Leafs biggest rivals, Rangers, Blackhawks? Don't think so.

You always hear it said Toronto doesn't want to see the likes of Canadian cities, too small time and bush league. Maybe it's the American cities that don't want to see the likes of Toronto.

Like I said, fans aren't necessarily interested in watching their team play American teams, they're interested in their teams playing in American leagues. There's a strong tendency in Canada to view anything Canadian as bush league and unworthy of their attention. And that's not limited to sports and it's not limited to Toronto.

Originally Posted by elly63

wannabe GTA

What are you, 12?

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

if we take the NCAA, you have more than 150 cities that embrace the sport, you have something that can sell very well. Here in Canada, you have maybe 4-5 teams that are at the top, and that's it. College football (NCAA) is bigger than the NFL.

Chicken and egg. Obviously U Sports will never be as big as NCAA, nor should it. But if the media payed more attention to it it could be a lot bigger than it is. And that would make more schools more competitive.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Like I said, fans aren't necessarily interested in watching their team play American teams, they're interested in their teams playing in American leagues. There's a strong tendency in Canada to view anything Canadian as bush league and unworthy of their attention. And that's not limited to sports and it's not limited to Toronto.


What are you, 12?


Chicken and egg. Obviously U Sports will never be as big as NCAA, nor should it. But if the media payed more attention to it it could be a lot bigger than it is. And that would make more schools more competitive.

what I'm saying is that the caliber in the CIS is not good enough. Laval won 9 of the last 18 Vanier Cup.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupe_Vanier


Laval, Calgary both blow out opponents to set up Vanier Cup showdown
Rouge defeats Laurier 36-6, Dinos take down St.FX 50-24
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/cf...bowl-1.3859133

[elly63]

Wannabe GTA, it is what it is, and that's why people say it. It hurts because it's the truth.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

if we take the NCAA, you have more than 150 cities that embrace the sport, you have something that can sell very well. Here in Canada, you have maybe 4-5 teams that are at the top, and that's it. College football (NCAA) is bigger than the NFL.

I'm well aware of the reality of things but do you think the US started off with 150 cities that embrace the sport and tons of top programs? No, they started from scratch just like everyone else. They built it up from nothing over decades.

There's obviously an appetite for university football in Canada and its history is just as long as that in the US. We have to decide when we're going to put in the same time and effort to build Canadian university football. If we don't and continue to argue that it's hopeless nothing will ever change. The next generation of Canadians will have to go without a domestic product to follow just like we did.

We don't watch/support Canadian university football because it remains an undeveloped product and it remains an undeveloped product because we don't watch/support it. The Panda Game in Ottawa shows what can be achieved in 5-6 years with just a little effort. There's zero reason why it can't be what every game in CIS football looks like. 15,000-25,000 people show up that thing and it gets tons of media coverage in Ottawa.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'm well aware of the reality of things but do you think the US started off with 150 cities that embrace the sport and tons of top programs? No, they started from scratch just like everyone else. They built it up from nothing over decades.

There's obviously an appetite for university football in Canada and its history is just as long as that in the US. We have to decide when we're going to put in the same time and effort to build Canadian university football. If we don't and continue to argue that it's hopeless nothing will ever change. The next generation of Canadians will have to go without a domestic product to follow just like we did.

We don't watch/support Canadian university football because it remains an undeveloped product and it remains an undeveloped product because we don't watch/support it. The Panda Game in Ottawa shows what can be achieved in 5-6 years with just a little effort. There's zero reason why it can't be what every game in CIS football looks like. 15,000-25,000 people show up that thing and it gets tons of media coverage in Ottawa.

not a lot of universities will be able to compete with the Top 5. it's pretty much, all of nothing.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by elly63

Wannabe GTA, it is what it is, and that's why people say it. It hurts because it's the truth.

No, it's just a convenient excuse when you can't sell an inferior product. It's like playing the race card when someone won't hire you - even though you're obviously not as qualified as someone else.

The US has very little interest in hockey/NHL - that's why the Leafs have a hard time selling tickets and no one watches on TV. Oh wait.

The Tragically Hip doesn't even cause a blip on the radar in the US, yet they sold out all 3 shows at the ACC on their final tour. How did that happen? Must've been 57,000 fans from outside of the GTA travelling to catch the shows, right?

Netflix has over 5+ million subscribers in Canada, yet Shomi and CraveTV have less than a million subscribers combined. I guess the 5+ million are from the GTA, and CraveTV/Shomi are huge outside of the GTA. Oh, wait - Shomi is closing up shop... is everyone in Canada a wannabe?

I guess more people outside the GTA own Blackberries than they do Android/iPhones, right? Of course they do - because the GTA are wannabes and everywhere else in Canada supports only Canadian products.

You want people to buy your product - then offer a better product. Compete. Stop making excuses.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Berklon

No, it's just a convenient excuse when you can't sell an inferior product. It's like playing the race card when someone won't hire you - even though you're obviously not as qualified as someone else.

The US has very little interest in hockey/NHL - that's why the Leafs have a hard time selling tickets and no one watches on TV. Oh wait.

The Tragically Hip doesn't even cause a blip on the radar in the US, yet they sold out all 3 shows at the ACC on their final tour. How did that happen? Must've been 57,000 fans from outside of the GTA travelling to catch the shows, right?

Netflix has over 5+ million subscribers in Canada, yet Shomi and CraveTV have less than a million subscribers combined. I guess the 5+ million are from the GTA, and CraveTV/Shomi are huge outside of the GTA. Oh, wait - Shomi is closing up shop... is everyone in Canada a wannabe?

I guess more people outside the GTA own Blackberries than they do Android/iPhones, right? Of course they do - because the GTA are wannabes and everywhere else in Canada supports only Canadian products.

You want people to buy your product - then offer a better product. Compete. Stop making excuses.

you can't compare the CIS with the NHL or the CFL, because the CIS = universities. There is no point to cheer for an university other than yours. the CIS is a very regional league. The 1st reason why the CIS will never draw like a pro sport is because of the lack of support and the lack of passion from alumni. If Laval has the best program and the best fans, it's because the alumni are present everywhere, and they bring $$$ with them.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

not a lot of universities will be able to compete with the Top 5. it's pretty much, all of nothing.

Which is why there was talk of a university Superleague of the top eight or so teams

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by elly63

Which is why there was talk of a university Superleague of the top eight or so teams

The top 4 in Canada West were all competitive with each other this year. Having a "top x" would virtually ensure that there would be no growth interest outside whatever 8/10/12 are in the grouping. Add to that a much more expensive travel schedule... It just feels like they're trying to use what works in the states, and it doesn't generally work out when trying to apply American setups.

Usports shot themselves in the foot when they aligned with Rogers. Viewership on Sportsnet plummeted from their highs with TSN, and unbundling the Vanier from the Grey Cup weekend cratered attendance (unless a nearby team makes it). Further, Sportsnet hasn't broadcast other games throughout the season like the agreement indicated would happen. Instead, we overall have more NCAA broadcast and less Usports.

[elly63]

And yet another reason to loathe Rogers

[Acajack]

Yeah, the attendance in Hamilton was very disappointing. Aren't they hosting next year too?

It's hard for a sport that has low visibility all season long to draw a good crowd at a neutral site when the two teams that are playing are either few thousand km away and just under a 1000 km away and "French" sic.

It would be better to find a way to have one of the two teams host. I know this makes the whole "festival" thing difficult to organize but it does seem to be hit and miss when it comes to the mileage they get out of this.

Maybe alternate between east and west? Or have the team with the best record host?

[Acajack]

Anecdote time

I had a lot of people in my house tonight for the Grey Cup.

About half of the pre-game chat among the guys was about the Laval Rouge et Or and the Vanier Cup. There is a lot of interest in CIS (ok U Sport) in Quebec and not just in Quebec City.

It's a major *complement* to the CFL.

I say this and yet only a minority of guys at my party are die-hard football fans. So CIS football still gets interest from casual football fans.

And we all laughed when Patrick Lavoie in the post-game euphoria referred to the team he just won the Grey Cup with on RDS as the Rouge et Or (and not the Rouge et Noir, which is the French name for the Redblacks).

The RDS host also misspoke at least once (maybe more) and said Rouge et Or instead of Rouge et Noir.

Freudian slips?

[Nathan]

^And a ridiculous number of F-Bombs from the linesmen at the end of regulation time...

That said, I also think there is an underlying interest in USports and such... It's just that it's not at all easy to get info/watch it. Games generally aren't televised (other than perhaps a local cable feed) and the main media pumps the NCAA and doesn't give any time to Canadian University sports other than a perfunctory "x won the Vanier Cup, now onto this week's NCAA matchups".

This is where I think the CBC might really have an opening for what they do. The "competitive" media, especially in English-Canada do an atrocious job covering Canadian sports, and instead focus on being a relay for American sports/commentary (mostly why I've almost entirely tuned out of sports over the last number of years).

It could be helpful if the CBC launched a pure sports channel and they only showed USports, Junior football, some CHL if possible, world tour international competitions featuring Canadians, etc.

And the Vanier should generally be bundled with the Grey Cup for a Football weekend (other than a few 1-offs at decent sized stadiums once in a while, e.g. Laval... though it would be easier if QC eventually turned their attention to getting a CFL team instead of chasing the NHL, which seems to only care about their US $$$ dreams). Could be interesting to bundle the CJFL championship in there too, but that happens a little earlier and Quebec/Atlantic Canada isn't in the league.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Nathan

That said, I also think there is an underlying interest in USports and such... It's just that it's not at all easy to get info/watch it. Games generally aren't televised (other than perhaps a local cable feed) and the main media pumps the NCAA and doesn't give any time to Canadian University sports other than a perfunctory "x won the Vanier Cup, now onto this week's NCAA matchups".

This is where I think the CBC might really have an opening for what they do. The "competitive" media, especially in English-Canada do an atrocious job covering Canadian sports, and instead focus on being a relay for American sports/commentary (mostly why I've almost entirely tuned out of sports over the last number of years).

It could be helpful if the CBC launched a pure sports channel and they only showed USports, Junior football, some CHL if possible, world tour international competitions featuring Canadians, etc.

And the Vanier should generally be bundled with the Grey Cup for a Football weekend (other than a few 1-offs at decent sized stadiums once in a while, e.g. Laval... though it would be easier if QC eventually turned their attention to getting a CFL team instead of chasing the NHL, which seems to only care about their US $$$ dreams). Could be interesting to bundle the CJFL championship in there too, but that happens a little earlier and Quebec/Atlantic Canada isn't in the league.

Took the words right out of my mouth, it's not like they haven't done that before.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Perhaps we ought to work backwards.

Is one of the major issues, from a media perspective, not the fact that Toronto is an absolute dead-zone for Canadian football? The Argos, the Blues and York are non-entities. If nobody's watching in Toronto (or the GTA) will this situation ever improve?

I also wonder how Canadians feel about university sport. Certainly much differently from the typical American sports fan and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Would Canadians, for example, push for increased funding for U Sport or would universities funnel more money in that direction? I would hope not, to be frank.

That said, I think it would be interesting if there were more coverage of matches between Canadian and American unis, whether it be basketball, football or what have you.

In the end, that was the wrong city and the wrong venue (at least for 2016). People are right: the game should be hosted by one of the teams in the Cup - top seed hosts, perhaps.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

People are right: the game should be hosted by one of the teams in the Cup - top seed hosts, perhaps.

You can't organize a week long festival that people across the country want to come to in one week. Toronto was just the wrong place at the wrong time. Ottawa was there and they are already planning for next year and are a lot smarter and hopefully less greedy than the last few organizers. It's a new sporting landscape and it's taken some a few years to get it drilled into their head (I hope)

Sometimes someone might not want to host. Winnipeg delayed hosting a year so they could figure out the kinks of their new building.

[esquire]

^ I think he meant Vanier, where there is a lot less complexity to manage. That said, I doubt it would ever happen because if a team that couldn't draw many fans due to either tiny venue or lack of fan interest, it would result in a much lower gate than just playing in front of 10,000 people in Hamilton or what have you. U Sports simply wouldn't be prepared to give that up.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

not a lot of universities will be able to compete with the Top 5. it's pretty much, all of nothing.

Why are you fixated on whether a team is top 5? The Panda Game demonstrates that its marketing and a rivalry that gets people interested, not whether Ottawa and Carleton are in the top 5. They could be #10 and unranked and people would still be excited to go.