SAN ANTONIO | City and Metro Transportation Thread

[Fireoutofclay]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

Tampa went with a classic trolley street car. It's flavored miserably. Those types of systems work in New Orleans and San Francisco because they've been they're for many decades. They've grown with the city's and are a everything part of life. You can't force that on cities into todays age. Modern streetcar is what people want to ride.

Ouch! San Antonio is not Tampa. San Antonio had a classic streetcar system in place for over 50 years. The roads they travelled on are still here, the same size if not narrower. And if I'm not mistaken, the track on Jones Street was still there up until a few years ago. San Antonio was the first major city to abandon streetcar, due to low ridership among other reasons.

When the downtown green classic streetcar style buses were introduced to the city in the 1980s, it was to add charm and embraced the history of the streetcars. I remember standing in the outer compartent, facing the cars behind. It was a pretty awesome experience for 10 cents. But they were not wheelchair accessible. They were replaced by the red ones that we have now, and even they are being phased out by those little buses I call caterpillars. Electricron was right on, user accessbility has to be a priority. If classic can't provide that, then yeah, we should leave it in the past.

[KevinFromTexas]

When you guys say modern street car, are you just talking about the style of the actual car or the type of system? There are some differences. A streetcar might be electrically driven just like lightrail (trains). Or it could even be cable driven like San Francisco's streetcar system is. San Francisco's is the last one, though, that uses embedded cables instead of overhead electrical lines. Modern streetcars and lightrail trains aren't really much different. They both use electricity, it's just that lightrail has a higher capacity being that they're trains instead of individual cars.

[sirkingwilliam]

San Antonio's streetcar will be electric and have no wires. It will essentially look like light rail but not function like light rail.

[adtobias]

light rail is the way to go.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by adtobias

light rail is the way to go.

Not while sharing lanes with other traffic. Light rail vehicles are usually around 100 feet in length, compared to streetcars around 60 feet. They only makes sense when they are ran in dedicated lanes because light rail trains are often 200 to 400 feet in length. Although I'll readily admit 300 feet city block dimensions discourage light rail trains being longer than 300 feet in length. At 300 feet in length, light rail trains can't share traffic lanes with other traffic without blocking cross streets. If they block cross streets, they cause instant gridlock, so that fact is never lost on planners.

Note, streetcars limited to 60 to 70 feet in length can't block cross streets, that's why they can share lanes with other traffic far easier than light rail trains. When you add the advantages of low floors and sharper turning capabilities, streetcars win easily when sharing lanes in city streets.

Having stated the text book reply above, I would like to add that I prefer light rail trains when using dedicated lanes over streetcars. But that depends if the agency and city can agree to dedicate lanes to them. Another factor to consider is how long the light rail corridor is; light rail gains efficiency over buses because they are coupled together into longer trains. Longer trains need higher ridership to fill them, which usually means longer corridors to attract more riders. I suggest that on shorter rail corridors, like what San Antonio is proposing, streetcars will be large enough to carry all the passengers, that larger light rail vehicles and trains aren't needed.

[Paul in S.A TX]

I haven't seen these renderings before. It would be nice to see this area brought back to life.

[jaga185]

The only thing about this location is they have to move that prison and clean up the homeless that reside there. Otherwise, it's only going to hinder future transit oriented development in the area.

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by jaga185

The only thing about this location is they have to move that prison and clean up the homeless that reside there. Otherwise, it's only going to hinder future transit oriented development in the area.

1. The Bexar County Jail isn't going anywhere.

2. I am not sure what the jails has to do with the homeless.

Most of the homeless in the area are due to little development in the area and the SAM shelter at Frio and Commerce.

This is the only real viable location for this type of development, and in addition it is a great location.

This has been in the works for many years, so it is nice that some progress is being made.

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by jaga185

The only thing about this location is they have to move that prison and clean up the homeless that reside there. Otherwise, it's only going to hinder future transit oriented development in the area.

The jail is across the railroad tracks. That's not going to hinder any development. And once development takes over that area, the home less will be forced out. Hopefully to the Haven for Hope.

[BNF]

I'm not a big fan of the streetcar route. The north/south line is great, but running it along Chavez is a bad call in my opinion. I think Market/Commerce would have served the city much better.

[whatdoyouwantandwhy]

Originally Posted by BNF

I'm not a big fan of the streetcar route. The north/south line is great, but running it along Chavez is a bad call in my opinion. I think Market/Commerce would have served the city much better.

I respectfully disagree. While it is true that the commerce/market route would see greater ridership in the short run, it isn't the better long run choice for various reasons.

1. It has relatively low potential for growth since most of that route is already built out, which was the biggest argument against it.

2. It would be more likely to cater more to tourist along that route and only contribute to the same long-term ridership as Tampa Bay.

3. Laying the route on Martin/Caesar Chavez Blvd. would provide for a greater growth potential, and attract more local based growth.

4. While I believe the short-term out come may look sluggish, I think as a long term goal this is one of the best routes for expanding urban growth.


This being said, I do see where you are coming from in the short-term, since the east-west route is largely undeveloped and will most def see low ridership in the first few years of existence.

[BNF]

I guess we will disagree then. Market/Commerce may be mostly built out, but a fair amount of these buildings are dilapidated, hundred year old buildings and many of them are abandoned. These buildings are prime for remodel or replacement. There are also a few empty lots that would be perfect for high density development. San Antonio has a great thing going with this part of downtown and it could be easily improved.

Although Chavez may not be densely built out, it still has plenty of buildings along it. I walked along Chavez today and noticed that at least a few of those buildings are 2-4 story hotels with parking lots. With the amount of space remaining downtown it will be a while before any of those structures are cleared. Ya, Chavez may be planned for future ridership, but at the rate condos and apartments are built downtown, it won't compare to Market/Commerce for 100 years.

It has taken many decades to build our downtown and a new one is not going to spring up overnight just because of a streetcar.

[sirkingwilliam]

VIA board approves streetcar route for San Antonio

Two years after the controversial move to pursue construction of a streetcar, VIA Metropolitan Transit trustees unanimously decided Tuesday where the rail system will run through downtown.

The line would travel mainly on Broadway, St. Mary's and Navarro streets going north to south; and on Martin and Pecan and César E. Chávez Boulevard going east and west. The streetcar will also use Commerce, Buena Vista and Santa Rosa streets on a smaller east-west leg.

But the route is not set in stone. VIA has said it will consider adding Alamo Street north of downtown, as a complement to Broadway. VIA planners will also look at swapping out Santa Rosa for Flores Street. Officials hope to determine whether to make these changes by the end of the year.

[longhornman2007]

First, let me say that I am all for alternate forms of transportation. But VIA really needs to establish what their final build-out system will look like. Part of the reason why citizens don't support the plan is that there is no reason why any given line should be built. However, if there was a plan for the future that described how a specific route was chosen because it is built in anticipation of future rail expansion or land development, I believe some additional citizens would get behind the plan.

For example, the Westside Multimodal Center is in theory supposed to be the place where regional commuter rail from Austin connects with local transportation options. Likewise, Sunset Station can act as the national rail (Amtrak) connection to the local transportation options. Unfortunately, this very idea has not been presented to the general public. People still see this as a toy train as opposed to part of a larger transportation plan. But the transportation plan cannot stand alone. It needs to be accompanied by a land development strategy that increases density and new development.

Also, on a different note, I would like to voice my frustrations with those that live outside 1604 yet complain that their infrastructure is inadequate. Really? When you decide to move out there, you should understand that the current state of traffic is the best that it will ever be.

And furthermore, don't punish those that chose to live in the inner city by voting against a rail system because it doesn't benefit you all the way out in the suburbs. We paid for your highway all the way out there that we never use.

It amazes me how many people argue against rail because it doesn't make a profit. Neither does that suburban highway that was heavily subsidized by my tax dollars.

[BNF]

The streetcar is a great project and I'm excited to see this develop. A light rail from the suburbs would really complement it though. Is there a concrete plan or timeline for light rail to get built? It would be great to have light rail to bring more people downtown, then a streetcar to move people around downtown.

[sirkingwilliam]

Elevated toll lanes proposed for 15 mile stretch of I-35

State transportation officials have proposed building 15 miles of elevated freeway lanes on Interstate 35, corridors that would be free for public transit and carpool vehicles but would likely require all other drivers to pay a toll.

The project could cost “north of $1 billion” to build, although that number is preliminary, said Josh Donat, spokesman for the Texas Department of Transportation's San Antonio district office.

The proposal is under federal environmental review, so it's unclear when the lanes could be built, but officials hope the studies will be complete and the project environmentally “cleared” by next fall, said Jonathan Bean, TxDOT San Antonio's director of transportation planning and development.

All the existing lanes on I-35 would remain free to use — they would not be tolled.

It's possible that a private company could build the project, though that has also not been determined. TxDOT is performing the environmental studies, but the state could partner with the Alamo Regional Mobility Authority or a “third party,” Bean said, during a presentation Monday at the San Antonio-Bexar County Metropolitan Planning Organization board meeting.

[ILUVSAT]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

Elevated toll lanes proposed for 15 mile stretch of I-35

Not sure if I like this idea. Also, ~$70 million per mile seems a bit steep?!?

[wwmiv]

How many lanes each way? I'd hope that it would be two lanes each way. Does this include the fourth additional free main-lane each way that has been on the table for awhile?

[sirkingwilliam]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

How many lanes each way? I'd hope that it would be two lanes each way. Does this include the fourth additional free main-lane each way that has been on the table for awhile?

I'm hearing four lanes each way, so 8 total. Two toll lanes and two HOV lanes. But there is a push to make it five each way, for 10 total. Three toll lanes and two HOV lanes.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam

I'm hearing four lanes each way, so 8 total. Two toll lanes and two HOV lanes. But there is a push to make it five each way, for 10 total. Three toll lanes and two HOV lanes.

Whoa whoa whoa. So what you're telling me is that the state is seriously proposing having - at max - 4 free mainlanes in each direction, 3 regular tolled lanes each way, and another 2 HOV lanes each way? After you factor in the typical 2 to 3 access road lanes on each side that's a total of 22-24 lanes total.

That seems incredibly outlandish to me.

What I've read is simply two lanes each direction that are tolled (basically the same as HOV) in addition to the already free but expanded 4 mainlanes of traffic.

Here's what they have online:
http://www.i35northeast.com/Video.aspx