Winnipeg Retail

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by windypeg

While this certainly isn't false, it's all about perception. I see more panhandlers/weirdos in Osborne village than downtown but that doesn't stop people from going there.

Lived in the Village/Corydon area, and Exchange(before it was hip too) forever. Quite tuned into what is happening or the pros/cons of the Osborne area on a 24/7 basis.

Your talking about two distinctly different areas, night and day.Most of this has already been covered by myself and other posters in the last day.

There is more of a transient population in the Village. You'll get undesirables in any neighborhood with activity of this magnitude taking place. The difference is High Density, A different demographic, consisting of full time residents who own property and generally higher income levels. It's gentrified, established, the activity continues night and day.

The core is a different animal and needs much work before it will even come close to the popularity this area enjoys. Even though you find more undesirables as you say in your opinion I find them benign and less of a problem than what we may find in the core and it's proximity to some very difficult and socially challenged areas in close proximity to the core.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by DowntownStefano

Downtown retail is a struggle no doubt. The income levels in the immediate area /residents are very low to attract unique retailers, never mind the Targets and WholeFoods of the world.

I think this is a bad misconception. Downtown in the business core of Winnipeg with office workers that are mostly on the top half of income scale in Winnipeg. These people go out at lunch and spend money in the downtown, just look at the Hydro Farmers' Market. The people shopping there are not necessarily the residents of the area with very low income levels.

I know a number of my co-workers from downtown will travel over to DeLuca's on Portage Ave west of Arlington at lunch to purchase groceries to take home with them. While their selection in some areas is more limited than a traditional grocery store something similar would be an excellent addition to downtown that could service both the office worker and local resident market.

Winnipeg really needs to think outside the box a little in terms of the type of grocery store that would work in downtown. Further, a better job needs to be done on marketing the captive daytime "residents" of the area instead of focusing solely on the full time residents.

One final thought -- would the downtown SHED be at all successful if it was only marketed to the full time residents living near by?

[DowntownStefano]

For whatever reason, right or wrong, retailers assess market strength based on residential income levels, not office workers.

I think you are right though when it comes to food / grocery. A preliminary Dtwn grocery study undertaken last year, points in this direction. A perm farmers market, comprised of a series of unique local farmers and food producers (processors) could work. Both CV and the BIZ will be undertaking a business plan to assess this opportunity.

[CoryB]

Maybe I am out of touch on things but a "year round" farmers market seems doomed to failure. I believe this was the original vision for the Forks Market with the planning being that there would be no permanent vendor installations on the second floor. Further, the production of most local food is highly seasonal due to the nature of our growing season.

I strongly suggest looking more into the lessons learned from The Forks Market, what they had originally planned 25 years ago and why that was changed. A permanent farmers market would also need a solid plan for how the transition between seasons would be handled.

Speaking of Farmer's Markets in downtown Winnipeg though, has any thought been given to expanding the Hydro market to add vendors in the lobby area?

PS I have lots of ideas of the topic if you want to talk more privately send me a direct message.

[Biff]

^^^ I think there might be a difference between the Farmers Market failure at The Forks and the one at Hydro. The Forks is out of the way and foot traffic is largely touristy. A more centralized location like the Hydro spot might work due to the high volumes of people working near by picking stuff for home.

[esquire]

The Forks Market is exactly what came to my mind too when I read Stefano's comments. The Forks got a little too mall-like compared to the original vision.

A good model for a successful urban market, IMO, is something like the Old Strathcona Farmer's Market in Edmonton. Unlike The Forks or Waterfront Drive, it is in an Osborne Village-type area that already has lots of people. They operate every Saturday in their own building which removes weather from the success equation, but it's basically a big and simple old barn with very little overhead. It's one of those things people do on a Saturday, and it doesn't require them to drive out to the sticks.

Unfortunately there aren't really many suitable venues to duplicate something like that in downtown Winnipeg. The Maws Garage next to the King's Head on King could work, but it's dilapidated and not particularly big. The Pump House on Waterfront is a decent sized building, but would cost a fortune to retrofit. I can't think of any other such large market spaces... the old Eaton's warehouse near Waterfront, perhaps? But it's occupied.

[beatlesque]

quote from ☝
Lived in the Village/Corydon area, and Exchange(before it was hip too)….

That seems to imply at least that there is hope to move this downtown area in a better direction as well… I should repeat, despite some of the frustrations raised in my initial post, that there are a lot of great developments I've noticed being here in recent months. Also have to acknowledge the artists, musicians, etc. who were in a place like the Exchange district when it was the most down - hopefully all of those elements will remain to promote vibrancy.

Upcoming forum it seems some people would be interested in:
https://twitter.com/TheWpgChamber/st...52089718185985
column I noticed by Stefano: http://smartbizwpg.com/2014/08/26/me...al-candidates/

+ seems like there has been an interesting meeting with trueviking etc. about re-imagining downtown in recent days

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Forks Market is exactly what came to my mind too when I read Stefano's comments. The Forks got a little too mall-like compared to the original vision.

A good model for a successful urban market, IMO, is something like the Old Strathcona Farmer's Market in Edmonton. Unlike The Forks or Waterfront Drive, it is in an Osborne Village-type area that already has lots of people. They operate every Saturday in their own building which removes weather from the success equation, but it's basically a big and simple old barn with very little overhead. It's one of those things people do on a Saturday, and it doesn't require them to drive out to the sticks.

Unfortunately there aren't really many suitable venues to duplicate something like that in downtown Winnipeg. The Maws Garage next to the King's Head on King could work, but it's dilapidated and not particularly big. The Pump House on Waterfront is a decent sized building, but would cost a fortune to retrofit. I can't think of any other such large market spaces... the old Eaton's warehouse near Waterfront, perhaps? But it's occupied.

Turning Albert/Arthur into a pedestrian only area during the summer could be a good start. Having both streets + Old Market Square + that plaza beside the RRC Patterson building would be a long stretch for outdoor vendors. I also like the idea of, instead of focusing on Exchange/Downtown, implimenting something in Osborne Village, but I couldn't see any of those streets being closed for a farmers market because every street has property egresses (except Osborne, which still has a few).

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Forks Market is exactly what came to my mind too when I read Stefano's comments. The Forks got a little too mall-like compared to the original vision.

[Edit]

Unfortunately there aren't really many suitable venues to duplicate something like that in downtown Winnipeg.

Agreed that the direction of the Forks Market changed over time. Before a year-round farmers' market is given a second attempt some time needs to be spent fully understanding why it failed. I think the seasonal nature of local produce is a strong contributing factor. Just go ask a producer for some local strawberries or asparagus at any of the farmer's markets in the next week and see what answer you get.

In terms of a large, year-old space in downtown that is currently vacant, how about the basement of the Bay at Portage and Memorial. If the basement doesn't work pick just about any other floor in that building. Lots of parking nearby, a good loading dock to help get stuff in and out if needed, plenty of access to transit, and a well known and highly visible location. Seems to have everything going for it.

[beatlesque]

Interesting ideas in these posts…

Went to the Bay downtown today and was looking at some Levi's, and was again told (second time in a few days for different items) that the fit I asked for would probably only be available at Polo Park. Whatever the socioeconomic reasons- and they did have other Levi's - it's too bad. Self-perpetuating cycle. Anyway I saw the Shoppers in Portage Place has electric shavers so probably will go back there. On another 👍 note I think the streetscaping being done really has a big impact on the feel of the sidewalks, etc. Relatively small investment with big return.


- poster

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by beatlesque

quote from ☝
Lived in the Village/Corydon area, and Exchange (before it was hip too)….

That seems to imply at least that there is hope to move this downtown area in a better direction as well… I should repeat, despite some of the frustrations raised in my initial post, that there are a lot of great developments I've noticed being here in recent months. Also have to acknowledge the artists, musicians, etc. who were in a place like the Exchange district when it was the most down - hopefully all of those elements will remain to promote vibrancy.

Yes, Even loved the area even when it was empty buildings and the garment industry hub, red light district etc..,rather desolate but progress today ,RRC Princess campus was empty warehousing, of course a partial facade remains today. One of my earliest bands played,(and lived) where it stands now. It's more difficult now to find this kind of space, taken over by apts./condos/retail and business, but it remains a cultural hub, much like it was some time ago. I hope it maintains it's character and vibrancy going into the future as well.

[esquire]

This probably won't come as a huge surprise to anyone, but the Free Press reports that the last remnant of the Holt Renfrew store at Portage Place is closing in January.

Even if they could make their phone booth-sized personal shopper and cosmetics shop work in this city, I don't think Portage Place is the right location for high end shopping anymore (if it ever was). The HR shop looked kind of weird stuck next to a bunch of social services and shops selling dirt-cheap tank tops, off-brand shoes and Tony Montana t-shirts.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...ce=d-top-story

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by esquire

This probably won't come as a huge surprise to anyone, but the Free Press reports that the last remnant of the Holt Renfrew store at Portage Place is closing in January.

Even if they could make their phone booth-sized personal shopper and cosmetics shop work in this city, I don't think Portage Place is the right location for high end shopping anymore (if it ever was). The HR shop looked kind of weird stuck next to a bunch of social services and shops selling dirt-cheap tank tops, off-brand shoes and Tony Montana t-shirts.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/bus...ce=d-top-story

Surprised it lasted as long as it has. It has stood out like a sore thumb in Portage Place for the past number of years.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Surprised it lasted as long as it has. It has stood out like a sore thumb in Portage Place for the past number of years.

This is sad news... It's one of only 2 places that carry the brand of shaving products I buy. Now I may have to drive to get my shaving products instead of walking over at lunch

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by steveosnyder

This is sad news... It's one of only 2 places that carry the brand of shaving products I buy. Now I may have to drive to get my shaving products instead of walking over at lunch

I think you can get some Barbosol from Shoppers.

[bomberjet]

So Portage Place is owned by some BC company. I thought folks on here were saying that the Forks North Portage thing get revenues form parking. How could that be? One person owns the mall, someone else owns the parkade?

And if some company owns it, not as simple of a "solution" to just demolish and build something else. Basically the City has no control of the place then.

Edit: Answered my own question.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...132297423.html

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

So Portage Place is owned by some BC company. I thought folks on here were saying that the Forks North Portage thing get revenues form parking. How could that be? One person owns the mall, someone else owns the parkade?

And if some company owns it, not as simple of a "solution" to just demolish and build something else. Basically the City has no control of the place then.

Edit: Answered my own question.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...132297423.html

The land reverts back to the city in 2062.

[bomberjet]

What about the mall on top? They can just tear it down? Just asking, not too familiar with how that was developed.

[cllew]

Trizek did the same thing at Portage and Main with their development when they developed on top of City of Winnipeg Parkade. They eventually sold to somebody else and that company bought the parkade from the city.

I think that MPI is doing with their downtown lots as well. They will own the land and Long Boat Projects (Chipman Family) will own the buildings on leased land for 30 or 50 years and then the buildings revert to MPI unless they sell the land to him before then.

[cllew]

Its interesting that Cadillac Fairview was the first owner of Portage Place and got out if because they could not turn a profit.

You wonder if a major developer of profitable malls thinks its a dog how do other developers think that they can make money at it?