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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 2:16 AM
bodaggin bodaggin is offline
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Port of Churchill

I've followed the Churchill story for years. Tons of hype, but the numbers ever added up to me. Everything has been proposed; grain, nat gas, oil, bulk. Even icebreaking LNG ships (1 ship, breaks ice AND carries LNG). But at only 140 ice-free days, it's a tough proposition.

Churchill does compete with Thunder Bay and the terrible St Lawrence Seaway. It shaves off 2000km to Europe and helps western sovereignty from Ottawa.

But building on permafrost, the remoteness, sea ice, a few long winters, etc, really make Churchill a tough sell. That rail line itself has barely stayed alive due to the tundra. And 250km of no road. Port Nelson has no infrastructure either.

What does everyone think about the Northern Ports? What number of ice-free days tilts the scales in their favor? As always, numbers matter. So I'm posting 2021 shipping costs per ton-mile by mode for consideration. Every port transfer increases costs dramatically.

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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 4:27 AM
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
I've followed the Churchill story for years.
Fuck dude, you have all of Winnipeg's transportation infrastructure on your shoulders, plus MB hydro? And Seaways? How much more do you want?
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 5:57 AM
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Fuck dude, you have all of Winnipeg's transportation infrastructure on your shoulders, plus MB hydro? And Seaways? How much more do you want?
Yes, because discussing the economic potential of a province in crisis is so taboo. Don't you have an ice cream tasting or some other 'bread and circus' to attend to?
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 12:16 PM
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I'm all in favour of developing the Port of Churchill for increased freight handling and, potentially, transporting clean sources of energy. I have no political agenda attached to it, just looking to add to the economy of Manitoba.
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  #5  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 3:03 PM
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wish artic gateway would answer their phone been trying to get a shipping quote didnt even respond to my email either need to ship a rare truck to thompson from churchilll
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 4:13 PM
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wish artic gateway would answer their phone been trying to get a shipping quote didnt even respond to my email either need to ship a rare truck to thompson from churchilll
Try calling Gardewine. They load trains in Thompson too.
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  #7  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 6:02 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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How thick does the ice in the Bay get? Could be a great naval station for a Harry DeWolf-class flotilla that is way closer to their intended area of operations than Comox and Halifax. They could smash lanes into the harbour throughout the winter if the ice isn't too thick. With the sailors come a bunch of population in Churchill who need all the amenities of life, everything grows.

Win-win for all involved (except for the posted sailors, but treat them like guys posted to Alert, extra money and extra leave, throw in some Via Rail passes to Winnipeg quarterly).
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  #8  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 6:54 PM
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Apparently maximum thickness is approximately 5 ft.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by FactaNV View Post
How thick does the ice in the Bay get? Could be a great naval station for a Harry DeWolf-class flotilla that is way closer to their intended area of operations than Comox and Halifax. They could smash lanes into the harbour throughout the winter if the ice isn't too thick. With the sailors come a bunch of population in Churchill who need all the amenities of life, everything grows.

Win-win for all involved (except for the posted sailors, but treat them like guys posted to Alert, extra money and extra leave, throw in some Via Rail passes to Winnipeg quarterly).
The DeWolf Class is only intended to operate in the arctic between June and October, although they supposedly can handle some metre thick ice.

These boats are very expensive considering they are basically unarmed. They have no anti-ship, anti-submarine or anti-air capability. They really should be coast guard ships rather than Navy ships.
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 7:51 PM
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I like parts of FactaNV's idea. Spending $25b/yr on a dedicated military that hasn't defended its own borders from invasion in 200yrs+ is crazy. Dedicated militaries should be used more for economic means, and fighting domestic "non-human" threats like fire, floods, ice, even infrastructure construction. Iceland doesn't even have a dedicated military, so it can be done.

But the ice dilemma still exists. Icebreakers can break ice at 3knots max. Open water cargo ships are ~20knots. So breaking 2000km of eastward ice just to hit open water is now a 15 day voyage ONE WAY, vs 2 days in open water. Economics spiral fast.

And then we start getting into wild engineering like:

-Ice road, road trains. Tens of semi trails hooked in a row to transfer the ice portion, transloading to a ship by the ice edge. Never been tried on ice. Transloading is pricey.
-Ice breaking cargo carriers. Likely the most viable option, especially in shoulder seasons. But again, icebreaker speed.
-Submarine LNG carriers? Go under the ice? Theoretically it's possible, LNG has buoyancy. But jeez, we're getting into wild territory all for a port. Do the ends justify the means?
-Giant tracked boat hoists. Like this, but on an absolutely colossal scale. Hoists the boat up onto the ice to traverse the frozen section at hopefully closer to 20 knots. LNG is light, might work for that, but likely not heavy cargo. Again, absolutely crazy crazy engineering. I'm trying here, but I just don't know...
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 8:12 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
I like parts of FactaNV's idea. Spending $25b/yr on a dedicated military that hasn't defended its own borders from invasion in 200yrs+ is crazy. Dedicated militaries should be used more for economic means, and fighting domestic "non-human" threats like fire, floods, ice, even infrastructure construction. Iceland doesn't even have a dedicated military, so it can be done.

But the ice dilemma still exists. Icebreakers can break ice at 3knots max. Open water cargo ships are ~20knots. So breaking 2000km of eastward ice just to hit open water is now a 15 day voyage ONE WAY, vs 2 days in open water. Economics spiral fast.

And then we start getting into wild engineering like:

-Ice road, road trains. Tens of semi trails hooked in a row to transfer the ice portion, transloading to a ship by the ice edge. Never been tried on ice. Transloading is pricey.
-Ice breaking cargo carriers. Likely the most viable option, especially in shoulder seasons. But again, icebreaker speed.
-Submarine LNG carriers? Go under the ice? Theoretically it's possible, LNG has buoyancy. But jeez, we're getting into wild territory all for a port. Do the ends justify the means?
-Giant tracked boat hoists. Like this, but on an absolutely colossal scale. Hoists the boat up onto the ice to traverse the frozen section at hopefully closer to 20 knots. LNG is light, might work for that, but likely not heavy cargo. Again, absolutely crazy crazy engineering. I'm trying here, but I just don't know...
Bodaggins, don't be lecturing us on the usefulness of militaries now, this is certainly not your wheelhouse. They should not be used primarily for domestic responses and not primarily for economic means. The CAF has "armed" in its title for a reason. Iceland can afford to be military free because of the militaries of the US, the UK and to a lesser extent, Canada. True NATO freeloaders haha.

As an aside, I wonder if the ice free season starts to lengthen due to climate change. With thinner ice, breaking may begin to make more sense.
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 8:44 PM
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Military should not be used primarily for domestic responses and not primarily for economic means.
You just proposed using a military ship to enable commerce. I'm agreeing with you, calm down lol
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  #13  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2024, 8:49 PM
FactaNV FactaNV is offline
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Originally Posted by bodaggin View Post
You just proposed using a military ship to enable commerce. I'm agreeing with you, calm down lol
A military ship that has the knock on effect of commerce, it would be there to enable it's goal of arctic patrolling, SAR and sovereignty.

Also, please don't tell me to calm down. You seem to have a habit to talk down to everyone of differing opinion lately.
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  #14  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2024, 4:01 AM
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Try calling Gardewine. They load trains in Thompson too.
bites tounge no comment
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  #15  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2024, 5:29 AM
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bites tounge no comment
You probably know more than me on this. I will accept your point. I used Gardewine once, but it was for bulk material, nothing special.
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  #16  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2024, 3:01 PM
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You probably know more than me on this. I will accept your point. I used Gardewine once, but it was for bulk material, nothing special.
theyre insanly expensive had a motor shiped from missaga was 400$ to get it to thompson gardwine fine cool not bad but from thompson to lynn 1500$ more they have a semi trwice a week shrug

theyre now charging 5k a pallet for shipping just from thompson im told
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  #17  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2024, 10:19 PM
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I wonder now that HBRR is starting to use engineered geo grid and graded fill and not stuff off the ground piled on floating old log subgrade, if they will get longer life out of their existing right of way.

A better rail bed should give them less slow orders thus better turnaround times for their rolling stock It may also make the VIA rail trip a little less rough.
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  #18  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2024, 11:53 PM
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I wonder now that HBRR is starting to use engineered geo grid and graded fill and not stuff off the ground piled on floating old log subgrade, if they will get longer life out of their existing right of way.

A better rail bed should give them less slow orders thus better turnaround times for their rolling stock It may also make the VIA rail trip a little less rough.
they had aproached wabowden about rebuilding the rail yard and councle didnt understand and blew them off last year

used to be a round house and maintince shops there at one time
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