The Coronavirus Shows It’s Time To Remake The American City

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That chart suggests that we should all walk or bike.

Come on, you realize that is not what it is saying.

It's saying that people who can or do choose to bike/walk are most likely close to their jobs.

I can't imagine this conversation:

"Hey honey, I am trying to decide how to get to work. Here is what I found:
By driving it takes 30 minutes
By transit it takes 45 minutes
By bike it takes...WHAT...15 minutes! MY GOD!"

[mousquet]

^ That chart relies on British rail, which is notoriously bad.
Ask any honest British citizen, they would tell you how bad their railroads as a whole are.
They're on their island and their local transit market has been lacking competition and productiveness, then this is kind of dishonest.

Japanese, South Korean or French related stats would be more honest.
I'm sure the German railroads easily beat the British ones by now, while theirs has also been partly privatized (which is an interesting idea when profitable).

Come on, take some global stats if you can get some, or just be quiet.
Britain is no reference at all at railroads.
Everybody knows about that.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Come on, you realize that is not what it is saying.

It's saying that people who can or do choose to bike/walk are most likely close to their jobs.

I can't imagine this conversation:

"Hey honey, I am trying to decide how to get to work. Here is what I found:
By driving it takes 30 minutes
By transit it takes 45 minutes
By bike it takes...WHAT...15 minutes! MY GOD!"

Copy that logic to people who choose to drive and you'll get the point.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That chart suggests that we should all walk or bike.

We could use the exercise.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by accord1999

All transportation methods have trade-offs, such as time spent commuting.



The car has become dominant because it has the best set of compromises and strengths for most people in the developed world.

This is totally misleading, because people in first world countries take rail over car due to congestion issues. If there aren't congestion issues, they drive. Most UK households have vehicles.

So just because a professional in SE England has an hour rail commute, and a laborer in Wales has a 10 minute car commute, does not mean that rail is apples to apples slower; it means the relative advantages depend on local mobility/congestion.

And obviously the same applies to the walkers. Walking isn't inherently more efficient, but it undoubtedly is in areas where pedestrian commutes make most sense.

Also, as others have mentioned, rail in the UK sucks for European standards, and is only heavily used for commuting in the SE, which will inherently have, by far, the longest commutes.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by mousquet

^ That chart relies on British rail, which is notoriously bad.

Rail in this context includes subway systems, like the London Underground.

And while maybe British transportation is bad, its statistics about its transportation systems is quite good and has data going back several decades.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...t-britain-2019

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Rail in this context includes subway systems, like the London Underground.

Which would further skew the rail data to SE England commuting, which will have the longest commutes, by far, regardless of mode.

Rail commuting, in the UK context, basically means SE England. The rest of the UK doesn't have heavily used S-Bahn or RER-type systems.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by accord1999

I wouldn't necessarily count on it, given how driving is recovering faster than other transport methods.




How's that, considering the devastation COVID is causing transit and will continue to cause until an effective and long-lasting vaccine is available (and administered to the general population).

And why do anti-car people forget that inside each car are people?

why do car owners forget people dont own cars or care about them? and that actually inside the car is typically person, not people?

but far and away with corona traffic is down, roads in many center cities are often way too wide anyway and sidewalks too narrow. that all can be improved with sidewalk widening and bike lanes, which help with social distancing, without disrupting car traffic much. also, just in general you cant sustain and build upon a thriving back to the city movement that was happening already without making changes in the cityscape from top to bottom to accommodate it and that includes rethinking streetscapes.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

When this thread was first started my opinion was HUH, of course not!

But now that I realize how freaked out many people are, I think this could impact cities. Being locked down for two weeks, no big deal. Being locked down for two months in my tiny apartment in a 16 story apartment building, that can get suffocating. My sisters have large houses in the burbs and are enjoying doing odd jobs outside, laying out, and hanging out with the kids out in the yard. I have no of those options. I just sit and consume media and read.

So, will this change my view of the city. 100% no. Will it impact a lot of people's opinions on cities? I would have said hell no a month ago. Today? Yes.

This. Simply this. One thing those of us in apartments, especially in the city, don't have is the space to just hang out outside on the lawn sitting on a chair and drinking an adult beverage (or three.) At least not during this pandemic. Of course things will eventually go back to "normal", except for likely transit. As many others have said, I doubt many people will be willing to be sardines in a tin on the blue or red lines any time soon, nor many of the busier bus routes.

I'm frankly thrilled that I've switched store locations at my job, so I only have to take the Belmont bus more or less directly to work as opposed to taking the blue line from Belmont to Clinton with pretty long walks before and after. The buses are cleaner and easier to deal with in terms of "problem" patrons.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Originally Posted by accord1999

That depends on what efficiency is. Anti-car people define it as space and energy, car supporters define it as trip speed/time and range.

yeah, the difference being that cars consume a hugely disproportionate amount of space and resources per person, they destroy the environment, they generate insane amounts of noise pollution which is measurably detrimental to the health of those subjected to it, they kill tens of thousands of people every year in the US alone, their infrastructure costs are many many times higher than that of pedestrian or bike infrastructure yet they also promote sprawl that can't generate enough money per square foot to maintain their infrastructure, and on and on. but people are garbage animals and will happily ignore all these things to maximize their personal convenience.

cars have their place but there is absolutely no reason for every individual in the world to own one or more cars and buy new ones every few years. it's fucking insane. more car sharing would allow the same amount of range with only slightly reduced instantaneous freedom in exchange for a healthier society.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

why do car owners forget people dont own cars or care about them? and that actually inside the car is typically person, not people?

Do they, or is that there just not many of them, if we look at modal share.

but far and away with corona traffic is down, roads in many center cities are often way too wide anyway and sidewalks too narrow.

What happens when driving comes back to 100%, or more given the devastation COVID is causing to transit?

that all can be improved with sidewalk widening and bike lanes, which help with social distancing, without disrupting car traffic much.

Does that mean we can retire all those photos showing how little space 100 pedestrians need, now they also need car sized buffers?

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL

but people are garbage animals and will happily ignore all these things to maximize their personal convenience.

Aren't you describing the advance of human civilization here?

cars have their place but there is absolutely no reason for every individual in the world to own one or more cars and buy new ones every few years.

Who gets to decide who deserves to have a car?

it's fucking insane. more car sharing would allow the same amount of range with only slightly reduced instantaneous freedom in exchange for a healthier society.

Well, thanks to COVID car sharing looks to be in the same trouble as the other major vehicle-sharing system, public transit.

[JManc]

I have two cars and am looking for a third. Not counting my wife's car. I think anyone who wants a car and can afford associated expenses, should have a car.

[The North One]

The problem isn't really cars themselves, it's urban planning.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by accord1999

Well, thanks to COVID car sharing looks to be in the same trouble as the other major vehicle-sharing system, public transit.

By this logic, nobody wants to drive cars anymore either because new car sales have fallen off of a cliff. Car-sharing isn't going anywhere, nor is public transit. The trend toward less car ownership is going to continue.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

By this logic, nobody wants to drive cars anymore either because new car sales have fallen off of a cliff.

It's hard to sell cars in an economic and mobility lockdown; this is for after it's lifted. What transport mode recovers the quickest, my money is on the ones where you never have to share with strangers if you don't want to.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It's hard to sell cars in an economic and mobility lockdown; this is for after it's lifted. What transport mode recovers the quickest, my money is on the ones where you never have to share with strangers if you don't want to.

So you're gauging long-term modal share by looking at useless short-term data that simply reflects that transit is commute-oriented and absent commute there will be little transit?

Maybe we should gauge the prospects for the film industry by looking at current productions? Or would you agree that's absurd? A two month pause is quite harmful, but will not end mobility norms.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Crawford

So you're gauging long-term modal share by looking at useless short-term data that simply reflects that transit is commute-oriented and absent commute there will be little transit?

I'm also looking at the mandated distancing policies to slow the spread of COVID, all of which are going to impact capacity, frequency and operating costs of transit vehicles.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by accord1999

I'm also looking at the mandated distancing policies to slow the spread of COVID, all of which are going to impact capacity, frequency and operating costs of transit vehicles.

Those are temporary distancing policies. You aren't gonna be distancing a year from now, to say nothing of 10 years from now.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by accord1999

It's hard to sell cars in an economic and mobility lockdown; this is for after it's lifted. What transport mode recovers the quickest, my money is on the ones where you never have to share with strangers if you don't want to.

The pandemic won't do anything to alter long term trajectory of mobility, which is moving away from personal vehicle ownership. There are a few reasons to believe that the pandemic might even accelerate the trend. Most people that I know who own cars have barely moved them in two months. If more people start to permanently work from home then people won't own as many cars.