HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture > Completed Project Threads Archive


 

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2008, 10:08 PM
scalziand's Avatar
scalziand scalziand is offline
Mortaaaaaaaaar!
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Naugatuck, CT/Worcester,MA
Posts: 3,491
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scruffy View Post
WHOA! thats far bigger than i thought. im afraid its going to be chopped down to nothing like Solow's Con Ed side on the East Side
I doubt that, this is already at the scale of the 'nothing' that Con ed got chopped down to. Besides, this is clearly of a similar scale as the neighboiring buildings which were constructed (fairly) recently.
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2008, 3:45 AM
antinimby antinimby is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In syndication
Posts: 2,098
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Yeah, Trump wanted to design his own version of Central Park West, and so he did. Too bad it's way more homogeneous than CPW.

Is there any progress on the relocation of the West Side Highway? That elevated highway is really ugly. Maybe this is one instance where NIMBYism might come in handy.
It's funny but you in a way provided an answer to both of your own questions: NIMBYs.

The Trump buildings are homogeneous precisely because the NIMBYs wanted them that way. Trump fought with them for years to develop the parcel of land called Riverside South and finally settled with them to build only residentials, scaled down and also to look conservative (more brick and less glass). There's more about it here.

Now onto the West Side Highway. There was a proposal called Westway and agreed upon by all levels of government (the city, the state and even the Feds) to bury the West Side Highway in an underground highway. Making better accessibility to the waterfront. The NIMBYs however didn't like the idea and fought for years (16 years) through protests, lawsuits after lawsuits to stop it. The Feds was ready to commit BILLIONS to it but it was dealt a coup-de-grace by a federal judge saying it could endanger the striped bass in the Hudson. In the end it was cancelled. One of the all-time missed opportunities for the city.
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2008, 1:41 PM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
^ Don't even mention Westway, or Nimbys everywhere will wake up from their slumber.

There was also a plan to move this particular stretch of the highway in a curved pattern, closer to the buildings, and away from the waterfront. There was even a chance that this was going to get done, but I think the cost did it in.
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2008, 1:58 AM
antinimby antinimby is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: In syndication
Posts: 2,098
NYguy (or anyone else who may be interested), there's a very good book about Westway called Waterfront by Phillip Lopate.
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2008, 10:04 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by antinimby View Post
NYguy (or anyone else who may be interested), there's a very good book about Westway called Waterfront by Phillip Lopate.
Thanks. I may look for it the next time I'm in a bookstore.
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2008, 1:03 PM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
Development plans continue nearby...
http://chelseanow.com/cn_118/proposedhk.html

Proposed HK high-rise eyes dealership deal

By Heather Murray
January 2 - 15, 2009


A major developer is close to striking a deal with a Hell’s Kitchen automotive company to build a 44-story apartment complex at a site at 57th St. and 11th Ave. that currently houses shiny showrooms and auto repair shops.

Rental real estate developer AvalonBay Communities presented preliminary plans to Community Board 4’s Clinton/Hell’s Kitchen Land Use Committee at its Dec. 10 meeting to purchase the property from Bay Ridge Automotive Group. The project would go up directly across the street from 40-story luxury high-rise The Helena at 601 W. 57th St.

AvalonBay plans to build roughly 700 apartments, 140—or 20 percent—of which would be affordable under the state’s 80-20 program. The high-rise will sit atop a four-story podium containing large automotive and limited commercial uses.

The developer already has two apartment complexes in Long Island City and three in Manhattan, and the company has built approximately 50,000 apartments nationwide, managing all of them save a couple in New York City currently under third-party management.

Fred Harris, AvalonBay’s senior vice president of development, said the developer plans to offer approximately 50,000 square feet of neighborhood retail, possibly including a supermarket or large sports store.

The current on-site public parking garage holds 1,000 cars, but the garage in AvalonBay’s proposal would hold approximately 500—meaning a loss of half the current spots there.


Infiniti and Lexus dealerships occupy the space now, and John Iacono, vice president of Bay Ridge Automotive Group, the operator of the dealerships, said at the meeting that his family has run the 57th St. location for 17 years.

The plan calls for a redesign of the space and the consolidation of five of Bay Ridge’s 23 New York City operations there, with Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, Infiniti and Scion dealerships at the site. The company can no longer afford the current space to hold their new car inventories in Manhattan, and will move parking and prepping operations to Brooklyn.

“Seventeen years ago we never thought I’d be sitting in front of a committee hoping to put a deal together with a developer so we could keep our business in New York City,” Iacono said. “We have finite space we can afford,” he continued, adding that Bay Ridge obtained some financial assistance from car manufacturers.

Iacono said his company’s 47th St. Nissan dealership would move to the would-be 57th St. project, but he can’t do the same with his nearby Acura dealership at 48th Street and 11th Ave., a competitor of Nissan’s. “We’re dealing with two manufacturers that aren’t allowed to coexist,” he said. If Bay Ridge can’t find another location for the Acura dealership, “we might sell it,” Iacono added.

Community Board 4 chairperson JD Noland expressed concern about where cars would be picked up at the new facility, reporting a “constant friction between the community and the [47th St.] dealership,” with cars continually parked on the sidewalk along 47th St. between 10th and 11th Aves. Iacono said the new 57th St. facility would have adequate storage space to keep cars off the streets and sidewalks.

On the residential side, Harris said AvalonBay was open to meeting the community’s affordable-housing needs, noting he is aware that many feel there are not enough two- and three-bedroom affordable apartments.

“We are very interested in moving the mix at both ends” by building smaller one-bedrooms and studios to accommodate more two- and three-bedrooms. “But in order to do that, what we really need is cooperation from the city Department of Housing Preservation and Development,” he said.

Harris told the committee that HPD “indicated that if we came up with a specific proposal that you folks were interested in, they would be flexible.”

Board member Pete Diaz then asked if AvalonBay would be willing to raise the percentage of affordable housing to 30 percent or more. Harris responded that the developer would be interested, but “it’s really about the economics.” He said that AvalonBay would consider it if the city would provide incentives and abatements similar to those earned through the 80-20 program to make 30 percent of the units affordable. Noland asked that the developer consider creative ways “to enliven the street at night” and bring in “retail that’s going to bring people there.”

Harris added that AvalonBay has met multiple times with the Department of City Planning and hopes to schedule a scoping meeting at the end of January to gain certification of the project later in the spring. As of Dec. 29, Harris said he hadn’t heard whether a scoping meeting would be scheduled for the upcoming month. The developer needs a zoning change from the current manufacturing use to allow commercial and residential development there, and will also ask for several zoning text amendments for the project.
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2009, 7:15 PM
philvia's Avatar
philvia philvia is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 452
i approve
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2009, 9:27 PM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
http://ny.therealdeal.com/articles/extell-plows-ahead

Extell plows ahead
Will Gary Barnett be the last man standing in New York real estate?




By David Jones
January 2009


Three years ago, an up-and-coming real estate firm called Extell Development Company was denied the right to develop the controversial Atlantic Yards site, despite outbidding rival Forest City Ratner by $100 million.

Now, the world has completely changed for both companies, with fortunes rising for one and falling for the other. The credit crisis has halted the $6 billion Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn for Forest City Ratner, while Extell has emerged as the most active developer in the rehabilitation of Manhattan's West Side.

If Extell's chief executive Gary Barnett is accurate, when the market finally reaches bottom in the near future, he might emerge as one of the last men standing in New York City real estate.

"In most of our completed projects, we don't owe the banks a dollar," said Barnett. "We are not under pressure to sell, and have a lot more flexibility to [ride out] today's market."

On Jan. 8, the New York City Department of Planning is scheduled to begin public debate over the latest plans to expand Extell's Riverside South project. The so-called Riverside Center project, located on Riverside Boulevard between West 59th and 61st streets, would include five mixed-use high-rises; 617,000 square feet of commercial space (including a cinema, automobile showroom, hotel and retail); a public school; 1,800 parking spaces; and 3.8 acres of privately owned park space that would be accessible to the public.

The plan has run into fierce opposition on the Upper West Side, as political leaders and planning advocates argue the site would overwhelm the area's infrastructure. Barnett argues that he has strongly considered the site's environmental impact.

"In terms of the density, we really have been very modest in our desires," Barnett told The Real Deal in an interview. "I think our project is very sensitive to urban development and will not put a strain on the infrastructure."


Given the realities of the economic environment and the lengthy Uniform Land Use Review Procedure (ULURP) process at the Department of Planning, Extell estimated the project would not be completed until 2018.

Still, that is not stopping the opposition from organizing now.

"Nobody should lay down arms on the presumption that the project isn't going to get built because of the economy," said Micah Lasher, an aide to Congressman Jerrold Nadler.

Jonathan Miller, president of Manhattan-based appraisal firm Miller Samuel, said that Extell's vision for the West Side would likely be realized only after a deep and lasting economic downturn, which has yet to fully play out.

"I would assume this is a long-term view because of the lack of financing and the number of units that would need to be absorbed by a market that is constrained by tighter credit and a recession," said Miller.

However, other observers say that if anybody can pull this off, it will be Barnett.

"I think Gary gets to go ahead, first of all, because he's got a lot of unique locations," said attorney Carl Schwartz, chairman of the real estate department at Herrick Feinstein, who has represented Extell on several projects. "He also has great relationships with his lenders."

Based on the current state of the market, Barnett's relationships with his lenders are not just "great"; to some, they defy reality. He has some of the biggest names in the world backing his projects, and even small community banks that won't touch other projects are working with him.

In June, Extell, the Carlyle Group and RREFF, the alternative investment unit at Deutsche Bank, were able to secure a $613 million construction loan for two of Extell's luxury towers at Riverside South, marking it the largest construction loan in the country last year.

Deutsche Bank led a consortium of nine banks that syndicated the deal for the two buildings, which will be located at West 62nd and West 63rd streets, between Riverside Boulevard and Freedom Place South, a new street. The 38-story tower will have a mix of condo and rental apartments, while the 23-story building will have just rental units.

"We do have a very good reputation in the banking community for delivering what we say we are going to deliver," said Barnett. "They feel comfortable that when they give us money, we're going to put it to good use.

"If you don't deliver the product you promise, there's always the chance people can't close on the units," he continued. "The days of the easy money financing on Wall Street are over."

Last month, Barnett was able to secure financing for another one of his new condominium projects at 535 West End Avenue. Bank of America, Helaba Bank, Capital One and New York Community Bank agreed to finance a two-year, $135 million construction loan for the 27-unit condominium.

As The Real Deal previously reported, the developer is being asked to put up 40 percent in equity.

____________

Barnett is not without his detractors, which include community groups, building residents and fellow real estate moguls.

In a third attempt to derail the Riverside South project, rival developer Donald Trump filed suit in October, alleging that Extell and the Carlyle Group engineered an illegal purchase of his 77-acre site on the West Side.

The suit, filed in New York State Supreme Court, claims that $16.5 million was transferred to the Cheng Group, Trump's partner in the deal, in order to influence the $1.76 billion purchase of the property.

Barnett denied that there was anything illegal or improper about the deal and characterized the suit as Trump trying to revive a dead issue.

"If you've gotten anywhere near Donald Trump and you haven't been sued, you're doing something wrong," said Barnett.
"It's just Donald being Donald."
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Mar 11, 2009, 11:34 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
More renderings from curbed.com
















__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2009, 12:01 PM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
An example of the elevated highway in "the way"...although waterfront access could be worse...

dpriddy










__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2009, 1:36 PM
Roaming Roaming is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 320
One day a car will probably crash up there and end up at the bottom in the park. Then maybe they will get rid of that elevated highway after that happens.
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2009, 12:13 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roaming View Post
One day a car will probably crash up there and end up at the bottom in the park. Then maybe they will get rid of that elevated highway after that happens.
That won't happen. There was once funding to remove that section of the highway inward and below grade. That was scrapped, and so the highway now stands as is.
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2009, 4:50 AM
avngingandbright avngingandbright is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 58
The highway is actually much less intrusive than it would seem. There's a nice park underneath that section (around 72nd) with a number of basketball courts, soccer fields, handball courts, that provide some nice outdoor recreational space free from rain or oppressive heat. Nearby are some dog parks and even some old arched stone tunnels. It's easy to forget the highway is there. Of course, unless, a car flies over the edge. But I doubt that would ever happen.
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2009, 11:57 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by avngingandbright View Post
The highway is actually much less intrusive than it would seem.
It's the aesthetics of it more than anything else. It's just not a pleasant site.
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted May 1, 2009, 8:26 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted May 1, 2009, 11:05 AM
ZZ-II's Avatar
ZZ-II ZZ-II is offline
Dubai goes Crazy
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Neuburg/Germany
Posts: 268
really awesome project!
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted May 3, 2009, 1:44 PM
avngingandbright avngingandbright is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 58
I'm averse to the concept of, for lack of a better term, the "towers in the park" mode of building, particularly when developers have this blank canvas on which to work. New York is a city of grids to which hundreds of years of zoning has applied to provide us with the modern day result which we enjoy now, e.g., the sidewalk width, etc. I think the area as is today suffers enough from a general desolateness, and a maintenance of the street-grid density would be beneficial as opposed to something like that which exists in Battery Park, which by all means is and has been described as an urban suburb. Robert Moses' "towers in the park" superblocks have damaged much of the city's fabric over time, including not far from this site near Lincoln Center, and I don't think this is necessarily learning from his mistakes. Just a thought.
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted May 3, 2009, 11:00 PM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by avngingandbright View Post
I'm averse to the concept of, for lack of a better term, the "towers in the park" mode of building,
If you look at it closely, it follows the street grid. The development itself is being stretched, which is why it needs the additional approvals.
So you will either get these towers, which open up towards the riverfront, or some lowrise, squat development.


__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2009, 4:28 AM
NYguy's Avatar
NYguy NYguy is offline
New Yorker for life
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Borough of Jersey
Posts: 41,153
http://www.archpaper.com/e-board_rev.asp?News_ID=3947

Trump It's Not
Portzamparc tackles Riverside South, though alternative plans put up tough defense


10.21.2009


Riverside South, like so many of Donald Trump’s projects, is not particularly known for its architecture. Beginning in 1997—after decades of plans, deals, and legal wrangling—the first of nearly a dozen faux-Park Avenue towers began to rise above the West Side Highway. In 2005, Extell Development bought the final undeveloped parcels at the southern tip of the project. But instead of more bland luxury, Extell announced last fall that Pritzker Prize-winning French architect Christian de Portzamparc would be designing the project, which was unveiled earlier this year as Riverside Center, a soaring, crystalline complex spanning four city blocks.

And yet Portzamparc’s plan is already facing skepticism from locals, and not only because it is 800,000 square feet larger than previously allowed. Ever since NBC abandoned Trump’s plans to build new studios on the southern most plots, planners and community groups have been devising alternatives. While Extell is in no way required to embrace these plans, it must now contend with them, as was the case during a September 30 roundtable at the Center for Architecture.

While the half-dozen medium- and high-rise towers crafted in Portzamparc’s sculpted style are the most notable piece of the plan, the architect insists the most important part is what happens at the street.
Working with landscape designer Signe Nielsen, Portzamparc has broken the predominating superblock and carved it into quarters. The idea is to incorporate the project with the city’s street grid and create view corridors through the project to the river.

The designers draw 60th Street into the project, heightening access and street activity. But the street terminates halfway through the site, where it is met by a 1.5-acre park. This is partly practical—the grade change is 28 feet, rather steep for a roadway—but also a public gesture. To create visual continuity with the street, a shallow reflecting pool runs the length of the park. “It was a way not to create an enclave and also to flow with the Manhattan grid, which allows a variety of architecture,” Portzamparc said. He added that the open space, which reaches 3.2 acres when plazas surrounding the buildings are included, is larger than that at Lincoln Center.

The buildings themselves will contain some 3.1 million square feet of development, and though their exact configuration remains to be determined, Extell has been promoting a school, grocery store, and movie theater as lacking public amenities that could find a home in the base of the towers. Above them would be a mix of luxury apartments, hotel rooms, and possibly affordable housing. “We see it as an exclamation point to the rest of Riverside South,” Nielsen said.

Like Portzamparc, his interlocutors focused considerably more attention on the ground than the towers above them. The Riverside South Planning Corporation, a non-profit that oversees the original master plan for development, also advocates the continuation of 60th Street, but it proposes a wall of towers on the north side with the creation of a public park on the block to the south. Not only are they skeptical of how public the park at the center of a major development would be, but Paul Elston, president of the corporation, said it would be less stifling on McKim, Mead & White’s old IRC power station on 59th Street. The corporation has proposed transforming the Con Ed-owned building into a cultural institution akin to the Tate Modern.

The Coalition for a Livable West Side proposed an approach similar to that at Gramercy Park. A public park would be created first running north-south in the middle of the site, with four development plots surrounding it—two east of the park, two west. Finally, Paul Wellen, one of the architects of the original plan, abandoned the corporation’s plan for something he said was more reasonable. He proposed leaving Portzamparc’s plan intact, except eliminate a mid-size tower at the middle of the complex, thus reducing its overall balk and opening up the IRT station.

Nielsen said these approaches were unfeasible, however, because they ignore issues such as creating a certain critically New York density and that 59th Street is a major Department of Sanitation route, to which the park should not be exposed. “These were things we were aware of, but we could not consider them,” Portzamparc said.

What shape the project takes will begin to be decided this winter, when the developer said it would initiate the public review process—it needs a special waver to deviate from the original plans for a studio, as well as to seek greater density. While the local community board has yet to take a position on the project, Page Cowley, an architect and co-chair of the board’s land-use committee, said the considerable community outreach undertaken by the developer has been heartening.

As for the designs, Cowley said that while they are impressive, many questions remain. “Schools, parks, and cars are probably bigger concerns than the architecture here,” Cowley said. “Because it’s bound to put a strain on other resources in the neighborhood.”


The Riverside South Planning Corporation prefers building north of 60th Street and creating the park to its south.


Part of the rationale for the north-south approach is that it gives the adjacent McKim, Mead & White-designed IRT powerstation on the south side of 59th Street.


The Coalition for a Livable West Side looks to Gramercy Park for a model. By wrapping 60th Street around the park, the complex becomes most pedestrian friendly.
It also allows for the construction of the park first, around which the towers can rise.


Paul Wellen, who helped design the original Riverside South plan in the 1980s, argued that radical approaches would never succeed with the developer,
so he simply proposed removing one of the towers, helping to open up the project to the surroundings and the IRT station
__________________
NEW YORK. World's capital.

“Office buildings are our factories – whether for tech, creative or traditional industries we must continue to grow our modern factories to create new jobs,” said United States Senator Chuck Schumer.
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2009, 9:35 AM
NYC2ATX's Avatar
NYC2ATX NYC2ATX is offline
Yank in Tex
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: TXpatriate
Posts: 2,173
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post

The Coalition for a Livable West Side looks to Gramercy Park for a model. By wrapping 60th Street around the park, the complex becomes most pedestrian friendly.
It also allows for the construction of the park first, around which the towers can rise.
This is my favorite alternative. I might even prefer it to the Portzamparc plan, perhaps because, even though the rendering provided may be a rough draft of sorts, the buildings are a little odd and out-of-place-looking. This is so much more like New York, and who doesn't love a new formal park placed ever so nicely in the midst of this redeveloped area. It will create a nice niche within the neighborhood. This is my vote.
__________________
BUILD IT. BUILD EVERYTHING. BUILD IT ALL.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
 

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Buildings & Architecture > Completed Project Threads Archive
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:23 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.