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  #81  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2008, 10:53 PM
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Now, would somebody, please make this thread go away.
And that is why this issue will never be solved. You say something "critical" about a group of people by suggesting that it is time to take responsibility for your own actions and the time has passed when people can lay the "we got screwed 150 years ago" card and people get upset.

If the only political correct thing to do is to blame the white man and ignore, or are afraid to discuss other faults this will never be solved.

face it. This is a HUGE issue facing our (AB, Man, SK) urban areas and thus on a forum where we discuss urbanism, it is bound to come up and should be discussed.




btw, thanks vid. That was an excellant article.
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  #82  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2008, 11:28 PM
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We should be bringing more positive things into this thread. Of course there are more negatives than positives, but there are positives and that's a start.

My neighbourhood is largely aboriginals, and is one of the poorest and least educated in Ontario. There are many initiatives to help change that but many of the aboriginals (especially older ones) seem content to continue living the way they are living. The younger generation really seems to want to change though so there is hope for the future. What the government should do is put some of that money into programmes to help aboriginals start their own businesses, or to have education professionals travel to remove First Nations to teach the people there valuable life skills. Aboriginal languages and cultures should be taught in school to help foster understanding among all people to remove the stigma of being aboriginal from society as much as possible. Female students at a school in Fort Frances were video taped mocking a pow-wow, and as a result Couchiching First Nation and the girls' high school had a cultural exchange ceremony, which no doubt improved the students' understanding of aboriginal culture. We need more of that, and it shouldn't have to be triggered with racism. It should just happen!

Additionally, more attention has to be paid to the knowledge that aboriginal people, especially elders, have of the land. The whole mess in Kashechewan could have been avoided if the government had listened to the elders and placed the new community on higher land, away from the flood plain, and located the sewage treatment facility downriver from their water intake pipe. (It's really absurd that this happened; it's not like that is standard practice in other communities). The whole thing in Kash was avoidable! And policing is also a problem. Many of our police are white, don't understand aboriginal culture and as a result are (or at least come off as) being racist. Aboriginal police forces are underfunded, overworked and have terrible working conditions. Only one of the thirty five Nishnawbe Aski Police Service detachments meets building codes. Most of them don't have bathrooms, they have slop buckets! And this is in Canada! More effort has to be done to police aboriginals with respect to their culture and situation. Treating them like shit and throwing them in jail isn't solving anything. We can also learn from the way they deal with their disputes. I can't remember what its called right now but it focuses more on communication, understanding and rehabilitating than accusing and punishing. There are many aspects of if that we could probably benefit from integrating into our own legal system.

We also have to respect their land and what they wish to do with it. Most of the band council of Kitchenuhmaykoosib Inninuwug is in prison for the next six months because they oppose mining on their own land. There needs to be more co-operation between aboriginals and industrial interests to respect their land and provide opportunities for their people. While I think the mine could have benefits to the people of KI, there appears to have been not enough consultation with the community over the mining activity proposed to occur there, and the way their protest was treated was less than appropriate.

As you can see, there are many issues and many more ways to solve those issues, but we need to talk about it. This thread shouldn't be closed. It just need better moderation to remove statements which contribute nothing to solving these issues, which in my opinion are some of the most pressing in our nation today.
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  #83  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2008, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by thegreattait View Post
It’s called bureaucratic waste.

The government should issue checks directly to those eligible, let them live off reserve if they so choose (while still receiving the cheque and tax free status)

Don't give me any BS about how they'll spend it on alcohol, drugs, etc. every human should be given the trust of the government to spend it wisely, if they waste it, that's their problem and they will face the consequences such as going to jail for possession of drugs or have children taken away if they are alcoholics.

This should take place for two or three generations, with rate increases matching inflation, followed by a generation of a freeze at that level and then held there for a generation or two and then finally taken away.

This provides them generations to rebuild what the citizens of Canada took from them in generations past, and provides them the dignity and respect they need to be trusted with their future success.

A solution like this would be less expensive as you skip the middle person and corrupt governments both at the federal, provincial and native alike. This kind of system would give independence to the native people instead of tying them to failing reserve communities with no opportunities. No jobs on reserves means that the people have more opportunities to engage in unproductive behavior, where if you provide them with financial support and the tax free status anywhere in the country, they can then get jobs in regions with better economic conditions such as Alberta and in tern can provide financial support back to their families.

The current system we have now is inefficient, and has no end in sight. Something major needs to be done and direct payment system such as this could be the radical change necessary to produce effective results and actual improve long-term prospects instead of just trying to throw more and more money into a failed system.
all the solutions that come up from governemt are short term a long termplan is needed... but the midle man has more say then the people it effects do...
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  #84  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 12:07 AM
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So semi-literate hate....I just wanted to make sure that was clear.
no offense but your saying that i hate native people? wtf? my forefathers faught with Otowa to get what the native peoples have today they sure as hell wernt happy with what was signed i can tell yea that.... btw i live in one of canadas most impoverished neighborhoods 4th was #1... and have seen the crap that goes on the racism coming from both ends...... the drugs the alcoholism the wife beatings at 2:30am ect ect ect growing up... have had many of family friends that are native stay with us for a peirods of time... tina keeper did her audition tape in my kitchen

btw we can't realy force anything on anyone all we can do is guide the people of tomarows future the kids all kids not just native kids lots of issues that face the natives also face every other member of the human race in this country....
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  #85  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
And that is why this issue will never be solved. You say something "critical" about a group of people by suggesting that it is time to take responsibility for your own actions and the time has passed when people can lay the "we got screwed 150 years ago" card and people get upset.

If the only political correct thing to do is to blame the white man and ignore, or are afraid to discuss other faults this will never be solved.

face it. This is a HUGE issue facing our (AB, Man, SK) urban areas and thus on a forum where we discuss urbanism, it is bound to come up and should be discussed.




btw, thanks vid. That was an excellant article.
...and I thank you for your next post vid. Thanks for trying to bring balance.

SHOFEAR: Why is it that everytime someone says something critical about trying to kick those who are already down, they get called "politically correct"? What I see the "PC" posters objecting to is overgeneralization and blaming, not to the assertion that personal responsability is important.

I don't hear any of the so called "pc" posters here saying that personal responsability doesn't play a role, but it would be terribly naive to think that we can completely ignore the past and pretend we all started off with equal opportunity. It is just as pointless to blame them for their predicament as it is to totally blame residential schools.

I think that most First Nations people are more than aware of their faults (personal and cultural). It's not like their collapsing culture and for many personal failings don't stare them in the face constantly. So berating them for being lazy is not likely to help a whole lot.

The issue will never get solved because many people insist on imposing their solution on everyone. Imposed one-size-fits-all solutions rarely work internationally and they will not work for First Nations people.
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  #86  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 1:22 AM
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Originally Posted by molasses View Post
So semi-literate hate....I just wanted to make sure that was clear.

Now how about we talk about construction and development.

You've just made an ass out of yourself if your comment was directed to 1ajs, you don't know him, and if you did you would realize your comment shouldn't have been made. Secondly if you don't like this particular thread don't read it then, but I bet your the type that knows whats best for everyone else!
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  #87  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 5:59 AM
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You've just made an ass out of yourself if your comment was directed to 1ajs, you don't know him, and if you did you would realize your comment shouldn't have been made. Secondly if you don't like this particular thread don't read it then, but I bet your the type that knows whats best for everyone else!
Firstly, I agree with what you said about the comment to 1ajs being innapropriate, but haven't you been the one arguing that people should be judged soley on their behaviour, and not given slack for their past? I don't want to drag 1ajs into this because he or she gets enough heat, but I think your rationale in defending him shows a major flaw in your view on native issues. I know it is on a much different scale, but you are willing to accept and defend less than ideal behaviour (grammar) from someone who you know, because you know something about how their natural ability or their past contributes to it, but you are all too quick to dismiss years of abuse as something native people need to get over and move on from and are quick to blame those who are not thriving in this world.

Secondly, the problem with threads like this is that they are in a forum we all have some responsability for and which are read by a lot of people outside of man/sask. I've lived outside these borders and the prairies, have reputation, accurate or not, for being backwards and racist. Call it politically correct if you will, but we need to be a little more reasoned and less reactive about racial issues if that perception is going to change and if we are going to draw people from other places. I'm not saying that I think you are racist, or at least any more racist than I am, and I have no interest in name calling, but I think perceptions are important, and I think that much of this discussion is creating an impression of racism.
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  #88  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 2:43 PM
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Originally Posted by socialisthorde View Post
Firstly, I agree with what you said about the comment to 1ajs being innapropriate, but haven't you been the one arguing that people should be judged soley on their behaviour, and not given slack for their past? I don't want to drag 1ajs into this because he or she gets enough heat, but I think your rationale in defending him shows a major flaw in your view on native issues. I know it is on a much different scale, but you are willing to accept and defend less than ideal behaviour (grammar) from someone who you know, because you know something about how their natural ability or their past contributes to it, but you are all too quick to dismiss years of abuse as something native people need to get over and move on from and are quick to blame those who are not thriving in this world.

Secondly, the problem with threads like this is that they are in a forum we all have some responsability for and which are read by a lot of people outside of man/sask. I've lived outside these borders and the prairies, have reputation, accurate or not, for being backwards and racist. Call it politically correct if you will, but we need to be a little more reasoned and less reactive about racial issues if that perception is going to change and if we are going to draw people from other places. I'm not saying that I think you are racist, or at least any more racist than I am, and I have no interest in name calling, but I think perceptions are important, and I think that much of this discussion is creating an impression of racism.
I'm happy someone else picked up on the irony of rrskylar's post....and I'm glad that this thread has turned somewhat into a discussion, with some balance, instead of the originial "let's find every damning article about first nations and post them here....then complain about first nations". There's big issues with poverty & race and just complaining and kicking people when they're down isn't going to change that...

Thanks for the good posts folks.
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  #89  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 3:24 PM
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^Two people above with barely 60 posts between them and I have to answer to why and what I post, like I said before if you don't like what you read in this thread, don't bother reading it!

You two probably would agree with Oved Mercredi when he said that Stephen Harper was racist because Stephen Harper wanted every Canadian to be treated equally.
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  #90  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2008, 5:36 PM
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Part of the problem with balancing out the stories/articles is that very little attention is paid to the success of Aboriginal people by the media. I posted a link on page 2 that has it's share of these stories. http://www.firstperspective.ca/
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  #91  
Old Posted May 3, 2008, 3:51 PM
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Lathlin lambastes chief of Cross Lake

By: Aldo Santin FP



Aboriginal Affairs Minister Oscar Lathlin said the chief of Cross Lake organized a rowdy protest against him as he tried to deliver a $1-million cheque last month.

Lathlin said supporters of Chief Jim Miswagon prevented him from leaving the community's airport to deliver the cheque to M ©tis people in the community.

"There was a lot of yelling and screaming going on so I decided to return to Winnipeg," Lathlin said.

The minister hosted a reception the following week at the legislature where the money was given to M ©tis leaders.

Lathlin said Miswagon twice prevented him from entering the community as he was campaigning in elections.

Lathlin said he believes he's being mistreated because of the band's dispute with Manitoba Hydro over compensation caused by flooding.

The Cross Lake band has received $56 million from Hydro in the last five years, Lathlin said, but added the community remains mired in poverty.

Lathlin said he suspects the funds have been used by Miswagon for lobbying efforts in the U.S. against Hydro.

"That money should have been spent on housing, social programs and economic development. That's what's frustrating me," he said.

Cross Lake is located about 520 kilometres north of Winnipeg. The community has about 7,000 residents, most of them band members but there is also a Metis group with its own council.

At the reception April 17, Lathlin gave the Cross Lake Metis the $1-million cheque for help in constructing an administration centre. He also gave $20,000 for an army cadet program.

Lathlin said Miswagon and his supporters have badly mishandled the dispute with Hydro.

He added he doesn't hesitate to criticize the chief. "I'm one of them," he said. "I tell it like it is. Under Jim Miswagon, there will be no progress and the people of Cross Lake will continue to live in poverty."

Lathlin, who was chief of the Opaskwayak Cree Nation in The Pas for six years in the 1980s, said Miswagon must learn to negotiate if Cross Lake is to prosper.

"...You have to give and take. That's how we did it at OCN."

aldo.santin@freepress.mb.ca
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  #92  
Old Posted May 3, 2008, 4:55 PM
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Another example of self governance mismangement, spening money intended to raise the stardard of living for the people, spent on lobbying. What a joke.

To make these "leaders" more accountable the government should give the 8000 directly to the people and then let the Band tax the people on this income. This would create a sense of ownership on the money as the money is for the people not for their band leaders political ambitions and agenda's. The people could then hold their leaders accountable as they would see how much they are taxed for the projects and could track where the money is going. In the current system the people are kept in the dark until cases like this are made public.
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  #93  
Old Posted May 3, 2008, 7:02 PM
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there are so many educational programs that the government offers but so few aboriginals take advantage of. Canada spends $12 billion a year and growing on indian affairs yet we still have all these problems, it shouldn't be. You have to get rid of the reserve system the reserve system is canada's apartheid. Young aboriginals have no hope staying in crowded reserves in the middle of no where they need access to urban centres for education,job oppurtunities ect... moving to the north end ghetto does not help either. The government should first move indian affairs headquarters to winnipeg because most aboriginals live in the praries. 2nd create a 5 or 10 year plan to eliminate reserves and help build proper housing units for aboriginals if they choose to move to urban centres ie:Winnipeg,Edmonton, Vancouver, Saskatoon ect... create an educational requirement where if aborignal students graduate from high school and or university they get free tuition or a tax incentive ect.. but if not they are fined a certain amount. Education is key aboriginals future is tied to it and I blame their leaders for that because they only look out for themselves and not their people's future.
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  #94  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 5:09 AM
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^Two people above with barely 60 posts between them and I have to answer to why and what I post, like I said before if you don't like what you read in this thread, don't bother reading it!
What does number of posts have to do with the quality of a person's arguments? And yes I do believe you do have to be acountable (answer) for what you say here or anywhere, just like I do. I am assuming you are an adult, thats how the world works. if you are not prepared to defend yourself with something more than "I have more posts than you", then keep it to yourself, or your buddies at the bar. This is a public forum and what you say here will get a response, not always the one you want. I am not criticising you, I am criticising your arguments.
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  #95  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 5:15 AM
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if aborignal students graduate from high school and or university they get free tuition or a tax incentive ect.. but if not they are fined a certain amount.
How would you collect these fines? Would we also fine non aboriginals for dropping out of school?
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  #96  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 7:14 AM
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What does number of posts have to do with the quality of a person's arguments? And yes I do believe you do have to be acountable (answer) for what you say here or anywhere, just like I do. I am assuming you are an adult, thats how the world works. if you are not prepared to defend yourself with something more than "I have more posts than you", then keep it to yourself, or your buddies at the bar. This is a public forum and what you say here will get a response, not always the one you want. I am not criticising you, I am criticising your arguments.


A rebuttal to post I made back on March 27th, and this is all you can come up with?
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  #97  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by socialisthorde View Post
How would you collect these fines? Would we also fine non aboriginals for dropping out of school?
Non aboriginals are expected to pay their own way through school - why would you fine them for dropping out of something they paid for themself?
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  #98  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 3:05 PM
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I would institute fines for aboriginals because their dropout rate is so atrocious. Education is key to anyones future and it needs to be taken much more seriously. I would consider for non-aboriginals too but they do have a much better graduation rate. Education is no joke yet there are no goals set for getting aboriginal kids to stay in school so there has to be stricter guidelines to ensure kids don't drop out and go into street gangs or just live off of welfare their whole lives.
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  #99  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 6:04 PM
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there are so many educational programs that the government offers but so few aboriginals take advantage of.
I'm beginning a woodworking programme at Ontario Works on Monday. Of the 9 people that showed up on the orientation day, 6 were aboriginal (and 2 were woman) and they all seemed eager to take part. You're right about the isolation of reserves though: Ontario Works only offers this programme in the city. Residents of most remote First Nations communities can't access it as easily.

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Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
create an educational requirement where if aborignal students graduate from high school and or university they get free tuition or a tax incentive ect.. but if not they are fined a certain amount. Education is key aboriginals future is tied to it and I blame their leaders for that because they only look out for themselves and not their people's future.
Aboriginals already have access to funds to get education almost for free. First Nations councils, such as Nishnawbe Aski Nation, have educational programmes. NAN operates Dennis Franklin Cromarty High School in Thunder Bay, which is owned and operated by and for aboriginal people, with an education geared to their culture. Confederation College has Negahneewin, basically an extension of DFC in a college environment. They main problems is accessibility -- like Ontario Works, they have to go to the city for these programmes and travel costs are expensive. Many aboriginal students stay at group homes while attending DFC, and in many cases it is the first time they've been in a large city. The culture shock is enormous and every year, about a dozen DFC students go missing.

There isn't much of a problem getting them to school, it's keeping them there. Many can't handle being in such a large city. They also need more guidance. They need adults in their life to make sure they're attending school and staying away from drugs and alcohol and other illegal activities. They need to know the benefits of going to school and the negatives of not going. Forcing them to go to school isn't going to do much, they need to learn how it will benefit them instead.

Also, fining aboriginals would be a double standard. We don't fine anyone else for not attending school. Why should we fine aboriginals? Fining one ethnic group because they aren't up to the educational standards of the majority is racism, even if you have a good intent. One would almost certainly not suggest this kind of thing if we were discussing black people. Fining aboriginals for not attending a post-secondary school isn't the answer. Enforcing truancy laws, something that all students under 16 (in Ontario) must comply with, would help, but again only with guidance. Continue that guidance to see them through to post-secondary education would have a much better result than putting a monetary fine on their heads -- especially since many aboriginals wouldn't be able to pay that fine anyway. A criminal record as a result of the fine would be a hindrance as well. That is something they do not need.
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  #100  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 8:52 PM
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A rebuttal to post I made back on March 27th, and this is all you can come up with?
With regard to the delay in my response, I will reiterate, that I don't think the amount of time spent on this forum corelates with the validitity of a person's arguments, or that the fact I don't check in every day means I have no right to respond. Do you feel otherwise? If so, you have not provided any rationale for that opinion yet.

With regard to the perceived lack of content in my message, I was responding to what I saw as the relvant content in your post, nothing more, nothing less, so yes this is all I came up with. Was I to build some sort of straw man from your post, so that I could have something more substantive to argue against? Did I leave something of substance that you said unadressed?

BTW, If I haven't already done so, I would like to thank Vid for bringing much needed balance to this discussion, and it sounds like, more than the rest of us, actually doing something about the situation.
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