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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 7:37 PM
psych1 psych1 is offline
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You are wasting your time Quimby. This is a thread to point out how First Nations people are entirely responsible for their own problems, not for logical discourse. The choice of articles clearly indicates the political slant this is going to take. Although I agree with you, in my experience you are just whistling in the wind trying to argue these things. There was actually a very informed discussion of such issues in the Regina thread recently, but they obviously can't all go that way.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by psych1 View Post
You are wasting your time Quimby. This is a thread to point out how First Nations people are entirely responsible for their own problems, not for logical discourse. The choice of articles clearly indicates the political slant this is going to take. Although I agree with you, in my experience you are just whistling in the wind trying to argue these things. There was actually a very informed discussion of such issues in the Regina thread recently, but they obviously can't all go that way.
Just trying to bring some rational and realistic thought to the issue, even if I am hitting my head against a brick wall.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 8:19 PM
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There's quite a few articles here: http://www.firstperspective.ca/
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 11:06 PM
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There are no simple solutions for the problems on the reserves since they are mostly the result of generations of government ineptitude , ignorance, and outright racism. Unfortunately , this history has created a very dynamic , unique situation that is more like a ball of knots that might prove impossible to untangle without starting over from scratch.

The first thing we have to do is to actually allow people who live on First Nations the opportunity to practise their democratic rights as voters when determining who leads the band. As it stands it's essentially nepotism of the highest order where dissenters are ostracized , their money witheld, and their livelihood placed in jeopardy any time they speak out against the current leadership. It may well be against the law for any of this to be practised but it's still the way things are.

Naturally not every band is run this way. How many are poorly run is anybody's guess but the number must be fairly substantial based on the frequency of articles reporting the situation this way. One is too many really so a solution must be found.

Fact is that nobody in this country has any right to complain about Canada...except the aboriginals. While much has been done to right the wrongs of the past there is still a seemingly endless amount of work to be done. It's probably time for plebiscites for Natives only where it concerns Native issues. The government needs to ask the average aboriginal man and woman living on reserve what THEY want to see changed. That's a start anyway. As far as I'm concerned the cost is irrelevent based on the fact that these people had almost everything taken away from them (whether by design or by accident which some people are loathe to admit might be the case)
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Spocket View Post
The first thing we have to do is to actually allow people who live on First Nations the opportunity to practise their democratic rights as voters when determining who leads the band. As it stands it's essentially nepotism of the highest order where dissenters are ostracized , their money witheld, and their livelihood placed in jeopardy any time they speak out against the current leadership. It may well be against the law for any of this to be practised but it's still the way things are.
There's the sound a hammer hitting the nail directly on the head. This is exactly what I have experienced in my past year's dealings with some of MB reserves.

The Chiefs cannot promote any kind of changes to the current systems on the reserves because at best they will lose their jobs, and at worst their house will be burnt down.

The same goes for any citizen on the reserve - it's status quo or being forced into the fringes of the community.

The reserve system is sick, and any radical changes to this system cannot come from within (i.e. paying rent for housing). Changes have to come through the federal government, people on reserves in most cases can't and in other cases won't force the needed changes themselves.
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2008, 11:54 PM
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The article from the link that is very interesting - the right to banish from reserves....very interesting....
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 1:06 AM
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Here is my humble opinion on the matter.

I doubt that anyone here is going to deny that what happened to aborigional people 100+ years ago was wrong. However, is there a continent on this planet (save Antarctica), where there haven't been battles for land, food, shelter, etc.? Violence is human nature. Hell, even the aborigionals of the new world murdered and mutalated eachother; women, children, seniors, no one was immune to death by the "enemy". Yet all people hear about is how the "white man" is the enemy. Violence is violence, and every race on this planet is guilty of it.

I guess some would argue that because the "white devil" had such a profound effect on aborigional lifestyles, they are the most horrific race on the planet. But why are aborigional people buying into the excuse that they should be supported for the rest of their lives? These people may have social issues, but do they not have brains too? Of course they do. They are human beings. And as intelligent human beings, why are there not more of them willing and able to attend school, get an education and make something of their lives? There are resources to help them out, so use them. Yes, having pride in your culture is one thing, but what about pride and self-confidence in your ownself? I believe this is just as important.

If you want to change your life, you have to be willing to change yourself and quit relying on others to a) provide for you or b) blame for your issues and downfalls in life. Can you imagine if everyone expected everyone else to provide for them because they blame all their issues on them?

People ultimately need to take responsability for themselves. Once the aborigional population does this, I am confident they will feel much better as individuals, and as a culture.

It's time to stop the blame game. I for one am tired of beating this dead horse issue that never goes anywhere positive.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
There's the sound a hammer hitting the nail directly on the head. This is exactly what I have experienced in my past year's dealings with some of MB reserves.

The Chiefs cannot promote any kind of changes to the current systems on the reserves because at best they will lose their jobs, and at worst their house will be burnt down.

The same goes for any citizen on the reserve - it's status quo or being forced into the fringes of the community.

The reserve system is sick, and any radical changes to this system cannot come from within (i.e. paying rent for housing). Changes have to come through the federal government, people on reserves in most cases can't and in other cases won't force the needed changes themselves.



The current system on reserves is "communism", the reserve owns everything, there is no incentive for residents to upgrade their homes or even look after them for that matter. The biggest change needed on all reserves is the need for private ownership of homes and property. Currently the dictator (chief) of each reserve can decide whether any individual lives well on the reserve or is simply banished for speaking out!
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 4:51 AM
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Every band in Canada holds elections for their band council and chief. You can call reserves anything you want but that is all they have left, and they are going to hold onto it for dear life.

Also, just because you do not agree with their cultural focus being the community and not individuals does not make it wrong. Just different.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
I guess some would argue that because the "white devil" had such a profound effect on aborigional lifestyles, they are the most horrific race on the planet. .
THis is a straw man and you know it. Sure you might find some nut who espouses this position, but it is quite possible to argue that "white" society has had a significnt negative impact on First Nation Culture, without any claims as to us being "devil"s. We made many of the same mistakes others (including First Nations made or would have made were they in our shoes), but that doesn't negate the fact that it happened and the force that triggered many of todays crises was white settlement. Or are you going to argue that reserves, poor parenting and substance abuse would have existed had North America not been "discovered" by Europeans, which of course would imply that there is some inherent genetic weakness in First Nations people? That is the only other direction I can see your argument leading. Therefore, if our ancestors played a part in it and we have some power to compensate for that, it is incumbent on us to do so.

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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post

But why are aborigional people buying into the excuse that they should be supported for the rest of their lives?
I'm sure some are and I'm sure some don't. We are all supported for the rest of our lives. We have police a health care system, an educational system and social services all paid for through communal money. You might not like that, but the majority does or it would cease to exist (sometimes the Right forgets that). Therefore, we are not arguing whether support should exist, but at what level, and I think the argument I made previously supports a higher level of support for First Nations based on historical deprivation. Deprivation carries across generations. Of course there are the fortunate (or strong) few who can overcome any obstacele, but I would argue they are few and far between in any race.

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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
These people may have social issues, but do they not have brains too? Of course they do. They are human beings. And as intelligent human beings, why are there not more of them willing and able to attend school, get an education and make something of their lives? There are resources to help them out, so use them. Yes, having pride in your culture is one thing, but what about pride and self-confidence in your ownself? I believe this is just as important.
Where does pride come from? Do you summon it purely through will power? I would like to hear you argue that. Pride comes from historical experience and information. In this respect, First Nations people fight a losing battle from day one. Even if you do not consider yourself racist, you would have to admit that racism exists and that First Nations people get treated worse on average than white people. Even the person with the strongest pride will have that pride shaken if they are criticised/judged enough. Otherwise things like interogation would never work.


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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
If you want to change your life, you have to be willing to change yourself and quit relying on others to a) provide for you or b) blame for your issues and downfalls in life. Can you imagine if everyone expected everyone else to provide for them because they blame all their issues on them? People ultimately need to take responsability for themselves. Once the aborigional population does this, I am confident they will feel much better as individuals, and as a culture.
Another straw man. This doesn't have to be either/or. I don't think anyone would argue that a degree of dependence has developed, but how does independence develop. Are you born with it? No, you have support while you need it and it is gradually withdrawn as you become self reliant. I am not meaning to imply as you will likely suggest I am, that First Nations people are somehow less competant in general, but that their society at the moment is. That is also not to say that their culture is inherently weak, just that it has encountered circumstances for which it was ultimately unprepared to cope with. Just for argument sake, you might say that western culture is also approaching sich a time. We are woefully unequipped to deal with things like fundamentalist terrorism and dramatic environmental change, and our day of struggles may lie ahead. Who knows, maybe we will be able to learn something from traditional First Nations culture in dealing with these things.

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Originally Posted by Greco Roman View Post
It's time to stop the blame game. I for one am tired of beating this dead horse issue that never goes anywhere positive.

Its not about blame, it is about responsability. Responsability arises from culpability and ability. I am not only responsable for things I directly caused. For example, do you have some responsability to help an elderly person who has fallen in the street if you are right beside them, even if you didn't knock them down? I think so. Perhaps you are a dogmatic utilitarian and don't agree, but I suspect you would be in the minority. I would therefore argue that we do have the ability to assist First Nations People and therefore a responsability to do so even if we do not accept "blame". I have argued above that we do have some culpability, much of it inheretted, but even if you discard that argument, you cannot claim we have no responsability. You can argue as I think you are implying that our way of helping has done more harm than good, but if you are doing something with a good purpose and decide it is not working, do you throw the baby out with the bathwater and throw up your hands (let them take care of themselves), or do you try to see how things have gone wrong and come up with a different strategy. We have only been starting to listen to First Nations People for the last 15 - 20 years or so, if at all, and so I think it is a little early to think there are no potential solutions to be found through the new processes coming into place (e.g. new treaties signed in BC, urban reserves etc). Rememebr the structures that are causing so many problems, such as band governance, are not new and were not set up by First Nations People. We can't just wash our hands of this situation and we don't need to.

Jeez, I said a lot for someone who suggested Quimby was beating his head against the wall.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 9:51 PM
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You can cheapen my opinion all you want, but the bottom line is that we are in a society where you look out for yourself. You want me to argue pride? What about all those aborigionals that perform cultural ceremonies for the public? What about all the news articles that state aborigionals are regaining their pride in their culture back and are wanting to improve their lives for their children? And so on and so on. C'mon, if there really is indeed all that cultural pride out there, you don't think that would lead to people feeling better about themselves as individuals?

I also find it interesting how much of my opinion you quoted, except for the part about aborigional slaughtering eachother before the presence of Europeans. Any reason for that? Does that not count as an injustice against humanity? What if the Europeans never did conquer North/South America, and instead it was an aborigional nation that had done so, became the majority of the population, and would now be in the same boat as whites? Would that be anymore wrong? I challenge you to answer that!

And do you honestly expect to feel guilty for something I personally had nothing to do with hundered of years ago? Those days are done. In my eyes, everyone is equal. As a multicultural society (as Canada claims to be) are we not supposed to treat everyone as equals without showing any prejudices? I agree that there is still much racism in this country. However here is another example of my beliefs.

If I were an employer hiring, and found that an aborigional person could do the job better than anyone else, he/she gets the job. Period. Fair is fair. I've been turned down for unemployment in the past as I am not a minority. Is that fair? Isn't that being prejudice against me if this other person is only hired because he/she is a minority and not based on their job skills?

I do support aborigional culture and would love to see these people rise to the top one day. It is a collective effort that everyone needs to follow. However, as I have said before, you would feel much better knowing that you can stand on your own two feet rather than depending of someone else for you well being.

You sound like you are one of those people who do nothing than throw money at a problem in hopes it will go away. It just doesn't work that way with this issue. -
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 10:47 PM
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Greco Roman;

I had no intent to "cheapen" your opinion, just to challenge the points you made. I missed your comment about First Nations slaughtering each other, but it doesn't change my argument in any way. I did not argue that First Nations are deserving of help because they are somehow morally superior to anyone else, but because they are morally equal. Actually, I don't even go that far. I simply argue that responsability comes with power, so their moral standing does not really matter all that much. I don't know what would have happened if Europeans had not come, and I'm guessing neither do you. It doesn't matter, because we know what did happen.

I repeat: I do not ask you to feel guilty about what happened. Aside fromebing futile, that would not be constructive. Accepting responsability does not require guilt. BTW, I am not someone who thinks you can throw money at things and they will go away, that would be naive, nearly as naive as the position that the market will take care of all social ills. Again, I point to many recent successes, which have occured through cooperation, discourse and aknowledgement of the past, not through confrontation, blaming and denial.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 10:49 PM
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Billions of dollars have been invested in various Aboriginal issues - yet all we hear about is that they don't have proper housing or clean drinking water, higher than average school drop out rates, 'over-representation' in jails, higher unemployment rates and so on and so on. Something definitely wrong with that scenario - don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that out.

Maybe the focus should shift from the past, the advocates should stop telling the general aboriginal population they are disadvantaged and let some of the more aboriginal leaders who have a more positive and progressive focus be heard more.

If you compare it to parenting - who, in their right mind, would keep telling their kid(s) that they come from poverty, racism, inequality and that they should demand the government to fix all their woes. What usually happens with those kids who have parents who continually pay them off to get out of their face...
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 11:07 PM
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Easterville school closed again
FEB 05 2008 08:00 AM

Over 400 Students are at home again on a Manitoba First Nation.
CJOB has been told the school on the First Nation at Easterville has closed again as teachers have not been paid by the band council since December. An employee at the school says the teachers and the principal are having a meeting but the building is closed to the students until further notice.

Two weeks ago the teachers walked off the job for five days but came back to work until yesterday.

Officials with Indian Affairs are meeting with Easterville's chief to try to find money to compensate the teachers. A spokesperson for the department says the government is not ruling out a higher level of financial intervention into the band's budget problems.

CJOB's Jeff Keele reporting.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2008, 11:30 PM
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Guess what folks, if the Aboriginal community is going to find healing and answers and a way out of the situations it finds itself in, it will do so from within.

Most of the 'solutions' posed in this thread still reek of colonialism -- "we have the answers and they don't." Capitalism and private enterprise or private property are NOT the be-all-solution to the situation on reserves. Education and jobs would be a fine start. The aboriginal culture has 10,000 years of communal living bred into its cultural blood. Good luck with that, Skylar.

Is the situation a mess?
Yes.

Did we make the mess?
Damn straight.

Have we managed to fix it?
Nope.

Are we CAPABLE of fixing it?
Its kinda like the "Teach a man to fish" analogy. We can only give them the tools, but ultimately it has to come from within.

Do we even understand their culture?
Obviously not or this thread wouldn't exist.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 2:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Pootkao View Post
Guess what folks, if the Aboriginal community is going to find healing and answers and a way out of the situations it finds itself in, it will do so from within.

Most of the 'solutions' posed in this thread still reek of colonialism -- "we have the answers and they don't." Capitalism and private enterprise or private property are NOT the be-all-solution to the situation on reserves. Education and jobs would be a fine start. The aboriginal culture has 10,000 years of communal living bred into its cultural blood. Good luck with that, Skylar.

Is the situation a mess?
Yes.

Did we make the mess?
Damn straight.

Have we managed to fix it?
Nope.

Are we CAPABLE of fixing it?
Its kinda like the "Teach a man to fish" analogy. We can only give them the tools, but ultimately it has to come from within.

Do we even understand their culture?
Obviously not or this thread wouldn't exist.
I'll go so far as to agree with you that this situation is a mess - apart from that ...

I do not consider myself as part of the 'we' that made the mess.

Fixing it?
Last I heard, the Government already made efforts at 'teaching a man to fish' - now tax dollars are-a-flowing to each aboriginal person who attended a residential school. Time to stop throwing good money after bad.

And as for the comment about the Aboriginal culture being 10,000 years old - who can't say that of their own personal culture, not sure the point of that statement.

Lastly, tax dollars aren't the answer to everything either. Unfortunately, the reserve system is a money sucker, not a money maker so it is inherently flawed for most aboriginals outside of Alberta and B.C - and it does nothing but leave some of us on the hook financially for an eternity. I'm sure my last comment will draw some reaction, but unless there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the financial responsibility, I'll bet many people feel the same way.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ScrappyPeg View Post
I'll go so far as to agree with you that this situation is a mess - apart from that ...

I do not consider myself as part of the 'we' that made the mess.

Fixing it?
Last I heard, the Government already made efforts at 'teaching a man to fish' - now tax dollars are-a-flowing to each aboriginal person who attended a residential school. Time to stop throwing good money after bad.

And as for the comment about the Aboriginal culture being 10,000 years old - who can't say that of their own personal culture, not sure the point of that statement.

Lastly, tax dollars aren't the answer to everything either. Unfortunately, the reserve system is a money sucker, not a money maker so it is inherently flawed for most aboriginals outside of Alberta and B.C - and it does nothing but leave some of us on the hook financially for an eternity. I'm sure my last comment will draw some reaction, but unless there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the financial responsibility, I'll bet many people feel the same way.
this overall situation is just a mess indeed, i swear its enough to make me sick, it doesn't matter what they do(federal government) it will always be the same as it has been from day 1. the day that there is a resolution is the day were all wiped from this earth.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 4:11 AM
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I found this story quite interesting.........

http://www.firstperspective.ca/fp_co...30aboriginalmp
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 5:24 AM
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I found this story quite interesting.........

http://www.firstperspective.ca/fp_co...30aboriginalmp
Interesting that the "urban reserve" idea is being floated there too, I thought it was just a Saskatchewan thing.

There was a little discussion about urban reserves on the Regina thread a few months ago, starting here, scroll down, and onto the next page if anyone's interested. I never got an answer as to how urban reserves are good for a city (obviously the First Nations get some financial benefit, but I'm not convinced about city residents), but I'm open to ideas.
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2008, 1:35 PM
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Fort William First Nation has benefited greatly by its proximity to Thunder Bay, and Simpson Street (Like the North End) is so heavily populated by aboriginals it might as well be a reserve.

Because reserves are federal land, anti-smoking laws don't apply to them. That has resulted in a couple really popular restaurants. Lack of provincial taxes on gas and other things makes it a pretty popular place to get gas and stuff too and they have a stadium. Three corporations, all airlines, have their headquarters in the First Nation. It has a pretty impressive business park in its east end. The community even has local bus transit, the only reserve in Northern Ontario to have that. (And one of only a couple in the entire province, I believe.)
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