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  #121  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 2:09 AM
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"Are skyscrapers not the ultimate non-human scale thing man creates?"

Yes, but their street interaction is human scale. Usually. And freeways, overpasses and interchanges can be beneficial but they can also tear an urban fabric apart. They have to be applied carefully.
I would agree with you there.

It really comes down to planning... as a means to benefit the city and its economy if planned properly. Improving the transportaion capacity and efficiency through well planned infrastructure investment such as interchanges has been proven to be beneficial to local economies. This real potencial to improve and broaden the transportation and distribution investment and improve commercial transportation efficiency can be used to enhance other aspects of transportation such as rapid transit.

With that said I also stand in firm believe that having a few hundred cars held up for 15 to 20 minutes .. a few times a day is extremely inefficent in terms of time, fuel and environmental pollution. A city is a place which offers a vast choice of properties and lifestyles, which must be serviced with sufficent roadways to sure its population and business interests. The city's economists have long since realized that (the hated by many Winnipeg forumers) suburbanites pay a massive premium to the city, which subsidizes much of the inner city, is needed to have a well financed city. This is only another example of how transportation efficiency is seen as and used as an investment by a city or metro area.
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  #122  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 2:15 AM
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I would also suggest that rapid transit encourages sprawl.

In terms of Calgary .. the city sprawls in the direction of the LRT lines. The far south of Calgary really took off after the LRT was established to Sommerset. It was also lead to tens of thousands to move to bedroom communities south of the city.. communite to the Sommerset station and than take the train into the city.

It is common that the C-train is completely full before it even leaves the first stop.. thats a strong sign of sprawl which is assisted by the C-Train.

If there were less transit options.. could it force many more people to live closer to there work?
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  #123  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 2:34 AM
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I don't think that the c train causes sprawl but probably just manages it.

What causes winnipeg's Sprawl without LRT or Freeways? Same reason people's choices to live in the suburbs and lots of land to spread out.
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  #124  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 2:47 AM
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I don't think that the c train causes sprawl but probably just manages it.

What causes winnipeg's Sprawl without LRT or Freeways? Same reason people's choices to live in the suburbs and lots of land to spread out.
The C-Train doesn't cause sprawl alone, but having that transportation option, really makes it much more viable to live so far out of town. It takes 22 minutes from Anderson to the TD Centre using the train. Thats a really nice option.. and beats the plain bus option hand down.

In Winnipeg I think sprawl is more limited without rapid transit. It does exist of course, but if the outter communities had access to quick transit it would only encourage more to live out there.
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  #125  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 4:06 AM
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I think you raise an interesting point.

Even though Calgary has an extensive C train is the C train repsonsible for sprawl or just a response to the sprawl? Certainly Edmonton's south LRT is in response to existing sprawl. The LRT seems to justify the sprawl.

In any event there is sprawl in Winnipeg without LRT and with some 400,000 fewer in population than within Calgary's city limits. Is the LRT the answer to sprawl probably not. Will it encourage sprawl, I am not sure but it will enable that lifestyle.
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  #126  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 12:42 PM
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Since many planners and all enviro-types believe cars are evil, you have discovered an interesting hypocrisy here. Sprawl is bad if it is serviced or enabled by highways. Sprawl is good if it is serviced or enabled by LRT.

Remarkable.
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  #127  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 5:32 PM
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"the city sprawls in the direction of the LRT lines."

Yes, the city built an LRT line to the bush and the city followed it!

Why did Thunder Bay get a new by-pass? Because we built the first one and everyone though "Great! Now we can live further away and get to work in the same amount of time!" Then the amount of traffic got so bad, they had to build another one! And by 2030, we'll have three.
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  #128  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 8:10 PM
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^^ I guess ThunderBay isn't growing, and doesn't need extra roads/capacity? New traffic is just be generated because extra roads are being built?

If you build more, people will drive more?
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  #129  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 8:22 PM
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Thunder Bay is growing, and spreading out. The core area is hollowing out. Both cores have lost at least 12,000 people combined in the past 25 years, while it has only been 25 years since they started building outside of the Expressway. (Except for Jumbo Gardens, which was it's own town until the 50s)
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  #130  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 8:28 PM
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I don't buy into the misplaced threory that new roads and expanded roadways increase traffic by themselves.

The reality is as transporting goods by truck and people by cars becomes more affordable there is a growing demand for roadway infrastructure. In addition to trading patterns which have incourged more and larger distribution centres. All these things have played at part in an increase in demand for road capacity.

Winnipeg is and will continue to invest in increasing this capacity as needed. As we move forword I believe that the trasportation industry will see significnat growth in the local economy.... and will require better commercial routes.
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Last edited by newflyer; Sep 30, 2007 at 2:43 PM.
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  #131  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 8:31 PM
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Thunder Bay is growing, and spreading out. The core area is hollowing out. Both cores have lost at least 12,000 people combined in the past 25 years, while it has only been 25 years since they started building outside of the Expressway. (Except for Jumbo Gardens, which was it's own town until the 50s)
Out of couriousity how much of the local economy in Thunder Bay is located in the inner city?
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  #132  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2007, 8:51 PM
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Define inner city. The cores? South and east of the expressway and north of the Kam? The original city (Excluding Intercity)? Are counting or not counting the sea port?
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  #133  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 2:41 PM
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Define inner city. The cores? South and east of the expressway and north of the Kam? The original city (Excluding Intercity)? Are counting or not counting the sea port?

I define the inner city as the downtown and surrounding area.

I really don't know Thunder Bay .. so I couldn't comment on where it would be. I am just wondering if it plays a significant part of the local economy.
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  #134  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 6:31 PM
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Perhaps to alleviate traffic congestion is to do what Japan is doing and that is an intelligent traffic management system check the site

http://www.dambach.de/57.html?&L=1
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  #135  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2007, 6:32 PM
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Downtown and the surrounding area in the south end is mainly administrative and poor housing, it probably accounts for less than 5% of the city's GDP. The north core is mainly tourism, and it has the casino, so that would be close to 10-15%, I think. The industrial waterfront and intercity make up at least 60% combined.

The problem with "downtown and the surrounding area" is that both downtowns blend almost seamlessly into Intercity (Which is, "officially", the CBD) so our "downtown" is huge and the "surrounding area" is pretty much the whole city. :/ It's hard to calculate, and I don't even know what the actual GDP for the city is, though I am sure I read that we get 7$B from tourism every year.
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  #136  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2007, 1:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supai View Post
I think you raise an interesting point.

Even though Calgary has an extensive C train is the C train repsonsible for sprawl or just a response to the sprawl? Certainly Edmonton's south LRT is in response to existing sprawl. The LRT seems to justify the sprawl.
No, it's not responsible for sprawl. Somerset, Bridlewood, Evergreen - and further south in the city limits - Chapparal, as well as Heritage Pointe and the town/bedroom community of Okotoks (that BTW is not officially part of the Calgary CMA) were all growing well before the Somerset/Shawnessy stations were finished just 4 years ago.

The same can be seen in the ever-expanding NW - where the C-train doesn't service yet. Or, the SE which is as deep as the SW where the C-train currently is and west of the city.

As for Okotoks, if people work in the city, they'll usually just take Deerfoot and drive...or take the commuter bus to downtown.

The reason the C-train is so successful now, is more to do with how much parking now costs in downtown...not sure what the average is, but in the Beltline, on an open gravel lot across from the Mustard Seed I can pay $15/day. Right in the core I've paid as much as $28/day...and I think there's one or two charging $32-35/day.

Winnipeg is still cheap for parking downtown, and finding a spot is always relatively easy...so driving is a real option.
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  #137  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2007, 1:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Only The Lonely.. View Post
Feng Shui seems to know a lot about this. I would start by asking him.

Is this being built for sure? That does not look good.
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  #138  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2007, 1:54 AM
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Its funny how people move to the suburbs to "escape noise" but always live near highways!
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  #139  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2007, 1:58 AM
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The bush between Molson St. and Springfield Ave has been cleared for the roadway.
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  #140  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2007, 5:18 AM
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Its funny how people move to the suburbs to "escape noise" but always live near highways!
In this case, it's not really "planned", so most residents don't see it coming. That area though suburban is quite nice. Also, noise is arguably only one factor as to why folks move to the burbs.

I still don't see what the benefit of this extension to Chief Peguis Tr would be...I just hope residents in the area are voicing their opinions about it.
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