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  #101  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I’m not even talking about lost earnings for the mother (or father). Just about the fact that $10,000 which I spend this year on child care would be worth close to 3x that in 20 years time if it goes into an investment portfolio.
I get the opportunity cost considerations but the problem is looking at having kids from a business perspective. It's not. Couples with the means to pony up $10k for child care don't care about not putting it in their portfolio. The kid(s) are their investment. They do not see that $30k in 20 years as opportunity lost but rather the best education for their kid.

You have a point about poor people having kids they can't afford. That's where business planning should come into play...Should I have three kids working part-time at Walmart...?
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  #102  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 6:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I get the opportunity lost angle but the problem is looking at having kids from a business perspective. It's not. Couples with the means to pony up $10k for child care don't care about not putting it in their portfolio. The kid(s) are their investment. They do not see that $30k in 20 years as opportunity lost but rather the best education for their kid.
And, it's not like they would have necessarily put all that money in their investment account otherwise. They'll consume in some other manner, especially in the U.S. Like my childless colleague now taking flight lessons.
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  #103  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 6:58 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Lots of poor people have kids they can’t afford. I’m just pointing out that most of those who are relatively well off would be shocked if they actually considered the math.
Most upper middle class people DO understand the math? Do you think people who are upper middle class - highly educated, successful (travel "overseas" for vacation) - pop a kid out and say, "Damn, no one told me that this is expensive?" Everyone understands that. As others have said, most upper middle class people do a pretty good job of choosing *when* to have the child which is fundamentally a part of the calculation.

Having a child is an inexplicably amazing existential component of the human condition. From an opportunity cost, as an artist, not having children would in some strange way make me less complete. What's the price of that?
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  #104  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 7:05 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And, it's not like they would have necessarily put all that money in their investment account otherwise. They'll consume in some other manner, especially in the U.S. Like my childless colleague now taking flight lessons.
I agree with this. My friendless kids just buy more stuff and travel more frequently b/c there's no school year to contend with. They're not retiring at 46 on the millions saved from zero child expenses.

Also, since 10023 is making a pure business decision...what's the value of your kids/family helping to take care of you when you're shitting yourself and in diapers at 82?
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  #105  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Most upper middle class people DO understand the math? Do you think people who are upper middle class - highly educated, successful (travel "overseas" for vacation) - pop a kid out and say, "Damn, no one told me that this is expensive?" Everyone understands that. As others have said, most upper middle class people do a pretty good job of choosing *when* to have the child which is fundamentally a part of the calculation.

Having a child is an inexplicably amazing existential component of the human condition. From an opportunity cost, as an artist, not having children would in some strange way make me less complete. What's the price of that?
You're not really supposed to say that on here, or even in 2019. But, yeah...
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  #106  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
I agree with this. My friendless kids just buy more stuff and travel more frequently b/c there's no school year to contend with. They're not retiring at 46 on the millions saved from zero child expenses.

Also, since 10023 is making a pure business decision...what's the value of your kids/family helping to take care of you when you're shitting yourself and in diapers at 82?
Personal travel, in comparison, is a total financial sinkhole. (And I love to travel BTW. Almost obsessively.)

In any event, not everything you do in life is out of "pecuniary" interest.

There is no financial advantage to rushing to one of my parents' bedsides if they are suddenly hospitalized, but I will do it anyway. Just because...
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  #107  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
I agree with this. My friendless kids just buy more stuff and travel more frequently b/c there's no school year to contend with. They're not retiring at 46 on the millions saved from zero child expenses.

Also, since 10023 is making a pure business decision...what's the value of your kids/family helping to take care of you when you're shitting yourself and in diapers at 82?
I'd add that 10023 can almost certainly afford kids, but the question is can he afford all the toys and splurges he wants + kids? And if he can't afford the two (or a sufficient reduced amount of toys/splurges + kids), which is more important to him?
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  #108  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 8:31 PM
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a life measured exclusively in dollar and cents sounds pathetically boring and one-dimensional to me.

a simple hug and a "i love you, daddy" fills my heart with far more joy than even the most generous investment portfolio statement ever could.

i know that sounds like some cheesy-ass line, and it totally is, but it's also the god's honest truth.



children are ridiculously expensive.

and worth every single last red cent.
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  #109  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 8:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
You have a point about poor people having kids they can't afford. That's where business planning should come into play...Should I have three kids working part-time at Walmart...?
Whoa, sorry, but I have this bad feeling that this type of widespread thinking just means the end of our civilization.
Money rules life. That is our dumb civilization. Rude and stupid.
It's just hopeless, done. The end.

Not the end of the world, huh. The world, or at least Earth will keep going anyway.
If the next generations somehow survive us, people who'll live long after us in the future will just despise us as we despise retarded barbarians from ancient times anyway.
That's about it. They'll be luckier.
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  #110  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 8:55 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is online now
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
By what logic do you think men make more money because they have kids?

I should have just said married, which usually ends up with kids in the picture. I don't know the logic off the top of my head, but thats a fact.
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  #111  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 9:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mousquet View Post
Whoa, sorry, but I have this bad feeling that this type of widespread thinking just means the end of our civilization.
Money rules life. That is our dumb civilization. Rude and stupid.
It's just hopeless, done. The end.

Not the end of the world, huh. The world, or at least Earth will keep going anyway.
If the next generations somehow survive us, people who'll live long after us in the future will just despise us as we despise retarded barbarians from ancient times anyway.
That's about it. They'll be luckier.
We're approaching 8 billion people. Civilization will be just fine. What isn't fine are people having kids they cannot financially support when they can barely take care of themselves.
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  #112  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I’m not even talking about lost earnings for the mother (or father). Just about the fact that $10,000 which I spend this year on child care would be worth close to 3x that in 20 years time if it goes into an investment portfolio.
But if you are already an upper middle class single or couple in his or her 30s do you really need that $10,000 to be worth 3x more in 20 years time? Is that a big priority? If in 20 years you are still going to be a single childless upper middle class person the priority for many people might be to have a family rather than go for maximum financial returns.

Presumably if you are that upper middle class person or couple then you can afford pretty much all you might reasonably want anyway, so maybe maximising financial returns isn't going to be the priority as it won't make much difference to your quality of life what with diminishing marginal returns on buying more stuff. Unless you are hyper-materialistic perhaps and value spending money over everything else, but I think most people don't fit into that description.
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  #113  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2019, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
That’s great. Nothing to do with my point though.

I am specifically talking about the cost of having kids for upper-middle class households.

Lots of poor people have kids they can’t afford. I’m just pointing out that most of those who are relatively well off would be shocked if they actually considered the math.

thats just it, why did you even bother? why should anyone care when your point is a very idiosyncratic and very small niche of reality.

if your are going to carry on about such a trivial ses slice of the world you could at least say why more clearly. you mentioned you like big cities and restaurants, surely its more than that, because that income level is little to do with people who actually live in cities, suburbs or anywhere.
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  #114  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
I agree with this. My friendless kids just buy more stuff and travel more frequently b/c there's no school year to contend with. They're not retiring at 46 on the millions saved from zero child expenses.

Also, since 10023 is making a pure business decision...what's the value of your kids/family helping to take care of you when you're shitting yourself and in diapers at 82?
I would never, ever want my children to have to take care of me in old age. I think the young already bear too much burden (financial and time) in taking care of the old, and that will only get worse. People should not live as long as they now do beyond their productive and self-sufficient years.
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  #115  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
I should have just said married, which usually ends up with kids in the picture. I don't know the logic off the top of my head, but thats a fact.
Yes, I understand the point about the stability of marriage (maybe) but I don’t see kids as additive to earning power. The time commitments alone make that highly unlikely.

Even marriage is an expensive commitment, considering most end in divorce (or a lack of satisfaction in some areas, particularly for the man, if their middle-aged wife is their only female companionship).
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  #116  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 12:04 PM
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Someone obviously raised you. You owe it to humanity to pay it forward. This is why I favor gay adoption. Why should homosexual people get off the hook from raising children?

If your don’t have kids, supporting children in need in other ways with all that money you save, seems the most logical and moral thing to do.
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  #117  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Someone obviously raised you. You owe it to humanity to pay it forward. This is why I favor gay adoption. Why should homosexual people get off the hook from raising children?

If your don’t have kids, supporting children in need in other ways with all that money you save, seems the most logical and moral thing to do.
?

Come back down to earth for a bit. As much as I think having kids is a wonderful experience and my wife and I both regret missing out on it...it's not an obligation. Gay couples who adopt do so because they want kids. Not because they have to.

10023, on the other hand, needs to watch Logan's Run
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  #118  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 1:31 PM
Don't Be That Guy Don't Be That Guy is offline
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Now I just want to know where yinz are only paying $10,000/year for daycare. Even the moderately priced good ones around here can be $1,600/month, and I live in what is considered an affordable city. Now multiply that times two and you have to be a higher income household with two earners to afford anything.
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  #119  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 2:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Don't Be That Guy View Post
Now I just want to know where yinz are only paying $10,000/year for daycare. Even the moderately priced good ones around here can be $1,600/month, and I live in what is considered an affordable city. Now multiply that times two and you have to be a higher income household with two earners to afford anything.
as your kids get older in daycare, most places (in chicago at least) lower the price a little bit. and you also typically get a discount for the 2nd kid.

when my kids were one year-olds in daycare, they were around $1,500/month. the little ones are more time consuming with the diaper changes and feedings and well, basically everything.

now that mine are 3 and 5 and potty-trained and can feed themselves and do a lot more shit for themselves, the price has come down a bit, and we get a 15% second child discount. so we're now paying ~$1,200/month for child #1 and ~$1,000/month for child #2.

it has been financially crippling over the past several years, and i bitch and moan about it often, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. my daughter starts kindergarten in 11 months, so we'll drop from $2,200/month down to ~$1,200/month soon.

and then in 21 months it will be $0/month!

YEE-MOTHERFUCKING-HAW!!!






Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I would never, ever want my children to have to take care of me in old age. I think the young already bear too much burden (financial and time) in taking care of the old, and that will only get worse. People should not live as long as they now do beyond their productive and self-sufficient years.
i'm sure it's a nice peace of mind for your own parents to know that they have such a stoic defender on their side who won't hesitate to call dr. kevorkian at the slightest sign of decline.
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  #120  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2019, 2:58 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
We're approaching 8 billion people. Civilization will be just fine. What isn't fine are people having kids they cannot financially support when they can barely take care of themselves.
Wouldn't that mean there is something wrong with the system, and not the individual?
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