Does an Anglo-Canadian become more Canadian by learning French?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Anglo-Canadian culture is completely different from standard white American culture (of which there are regional variants, none similar to Canadian).

I thought I had the US all figured out until I actually moved there.

Let's not get carried away now.

[itom 987]

A language is just a way to communicate, I have a hearing problem but don't know sign language. Even if I did, none of the people around me knows sign language so it would never get used. The same thing can be said for french in North America, only a tiny fraction of the entire continent knows french. Why the Quebec government is so fixated on preserving french is beyond me. I guess it must be about NATIONALISM!!!! That language is constantly hobbling the economy and preventing Quebecers from reaching their full potential. Languages naturally change and evolve over time, fighting it is a lost cause. But of course, you all will never listen and keep blaming the rest of the country for your problems. If you guys actually took measures to improve your economy we wouldn't be having this discussion about equalization payments.


Do I know french? Obviously not, and it isn't worth my time to learn it.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would say that for half of you guys it is curiosity - so similar to what you are saying.

For the other half, it is more about "deligitimization".

Yeah, you're right, not all of it is genuine curiosity.

Originally Posted by wave46

I might be showing off here as per your judgement - but if I'm not mistaken, Chinese in Canada could very well mean either Mandarin or Cantonese depending on the person's origins. We have a lot of Hong Kong Chinese in this country, so there is more than a fair chance that one could mean the wrong 'Chinese', at least in a Canadian context.

You would never offend a Cantonese-speaker by saying you speak Chinese to them when you speak Mandarin. They would know you mean Mandarin, because if you meant you speak Cantonese you would actually say you speak Cantonese. They are matter-of-fact in the knowledge that Cantonese is a small regional language in China, and would never expect to be deferred to linguistically outside of Guangdong or Hong Kong. Including in Canada now, where the mainland Chinese presence is the overwhelming majority.

They're actually rather proud of how "difficult" it is perceived to be in the rest of China (and that's no lie--it really is hard to learn compared to Mandarin), along with how much closer the pronunciations are to ancient Chinese compared to Mandarin, a relative upstart.

[Acajack]

By today's standards, saying Quebec French is not real French is clearly a micro-aggression or micro-racism against francophones in this country.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Anglo-Canadian culture is completely different from standard white American culture (of which there are regional variants, none similar to Canadian).

I thought I had the US all figured out until I actually moved there.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Let's not get carried away now.

Catnip!

Perhaps it's a function of getting older and noticing a lot of little stuff that I unwittingly exaggerate, but every time I mix with academics at my sister's place in western/upstate New York I'm always struck by how alien they feel to me. Even my sister herself has become noticeably American in her personality and attitudes, having lived there for twenty years and being married to a native. Once she even got on my case for apologizing too much!

[wave46]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Catnip!

Perhaps it's a function of getting older and noticing a lot of little stuff that I unwittingly exaggerate, but every time I mix with academics at my sister's place in western/upstate New York I'm always struck by how alien they feel to me. Even my sister herself has become noticeably American in her personality and attitudes, having lived there for twenty years and being married to a native. Once she even got on my case for apologizing too much!

I'd offer the opinion that alien would be too strong a characterization.

I'd like to think I quite understand America. I might not agree with some of the views, but I think I could at minimum understand the point of view of an 'average' person there. As you mention, your sister married a local - this isn't an oil to water situation.

Whereas somewhere like mainland China or Japan I would describe as alien. Would we laugh at the same jokes, as I laugh at something like the Simpsons? (at least the early seasons) Even if I was a native language speaker, I think I'd struggle with the overarching social interactions - there's levels of context to interactions I'd never really understand, having been raised in a low-context society. Sure, the Japanese are quite friendly to tourists, but I think I'd always been looked on as a gaijin if I tried to settle there. The interactions would be friendly, but I suspect I'd never have the candid take on things that I get here (or in America) if I sat down and had a few drinks with someone.

Anyway, I digress on the matter.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You would never offend a Cantonese-speaker by saying you speak Chinese to them when you speak Mandarin. They would know you mean Mandarin, because if you meant you speak Cantonese you would actually say you speak Cantonese. They are matter-of-fact in the knowledge that Cantonese is a small regional language in China, and would never expect to be deferred to linguistically outside of Guangdong or Hong Kong. Including in Canada now, where the mainland Chinese presence is the overwhelming majority.

They're actually rather proud of how "difficult" it is perceived to be in the rest of China (and that's no lie--it really is hard to learn compared to Mandarin), along with how much closer the pronunciations are to ancient Chinese compared to Mandarin, a relative upstart.

Interesting. I honestly had no idea - I always was under the impression HKers still had a strong foothold here still. Maybe I'm still living in the past, which figures given where I live.

They say you learn something every day...

[p_xavier]

On the subject.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...real-1.5359782

[CityTech]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Yeah, you're right, not all of it is genuine curiosity.


You would never offend a Cantonese-speaker by saying you speak Chinese to them when you speak Mandarin. They would know you mean Mandarin, because if you meant you speak Cantonese you would actually say you speak Cantonese. They are matter-of-fact in the knowledge that Cantonese is a small regional language in China, and would never expect to be deferred to linguistically outside of Guangdong or Hong Kong. Including in Canada now, where the mainland Chinese presence is the overwhelming majority.

They're actually rather proud of how "difficult" it is perceived to be in the rest of China (and that's no lie--it really is hard to learn compared to Mandarin), along with how much closer the pronunciations are to ancient Chinese compared to Mandarin, a relative upstart.

The census data suggests otherwise. There are 592,035 Canadians who speak Mandarin and 565,275 who speak Cantonese, nearly tied. In Ontario, Cantonese is the 4th most common mother tongue language.

One of my close friends is Chinese-Canadian (born in Canada to immigrant parents from Guangdong), and she can sort of understand Cantonese but completely blanks over when someone speaks to her in Mandarin. I've went with her to lots of restaurants in Mississauga and Toronto where the language of the room was clearly Cantonese, as she was able to communicate.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

On the subject.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...real-1.5359782

Interesting read about an insecure Ontarian trying to fit in in the Montreal job market.

Sometimes anglos are afraid of applying to jobs in French-speaking environments, mostly due to their own insecurities. They often think their French isn't good enough, or are afraid to use it.

They should still give it a try and try to get out of their comfort zone. I think they don't suspect how positively they're seen if they're making the effort to speak and write French. It doesn't have to be perfect. Colleagues generally appreciate the courage it takes to make the move. There's even a "cool factor" to it. As in "wow, this guy moved from Nova Scotia, managed to learn French and works with us? Impressive".

I know it's stressful in the beginning (I'm from the opposite side of the language-mirror, and a lot of my day is spent in meetings with out-of-Quebec colleagues, in English), but you quickly get use to it, and your language skills improve dramatically.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by begratto

Interesting read about an insecure Ontarian trying to fit in in the Montreal job market.

Sometimes anglos are afraid of applying to jobs in French-speaking environments, mostly due to their own insecurities. They often think their French isn't good enough, or are afraid to use it.

They should still give it a try and try to get out of their comfort zone. I think they don't suspect how positively they're seen if they're making the effort to speak and write French. It doesn't have to be perfect. Colleagues generally appreciate the courage it takes to make the move. There's even a "cool factor" to it. As in "wow, this guy moved from Nova Scotia, managed to learn French and works with us? Impressive".

I know it's stressful in the beginning (I'm from the opposite side of the language-mirror, and a lot of my day is spent in meetings with out-of-Quebec colleagues, in English), but you quickly get use to it, and your language skills improve dramatically.

On the other hand, I know a Tunisian who moved to Montreal from Ottawa and encountered a heck of a time trying to find a position, until accepting a job in a factory. He got the usual "no Canadian experience" thing that many immigrants experience, but he was also told that his French needed work. His entire education, including his university degrees and subsequent college study in Canada had been in French. I've lost track of him, but last I heard he was unemployed.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Yeah, you're right, not all of it is genuine curiosity.

You would never offend a Cantonese-speaker by saying you speak Chinese to them when you speak Mandarin. They would know you mean Mandarin, because if you meant you speak Cantonese you would actually say you speak Cantonese. They are matter-of-fact in the knowledge that Cantonese is a small regional language in China, and would never expect to be deferred to linguistically outside of Guangdong or Hong Kong. Including in Canada now, where the mainland Chinese presence is the overwhelming majority.

They're actually rather proud of how "difficult" it is perceived to be in the rest of China (and that's no lie--it really is hard to learn compared to Mandarin), along with how much closer the pronunciations are to ancient Chinese compared to Mandarin, a relative upstart.

Thank you for this tidbit, I am going to use it to subtly flex on people who specify Mandarin when the subject of Chinese languages comes up.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Anglo-Canadian culture is completely different from standard white American culture (of which there are regional variants, none similar to Canadian).

I thought I had the US all figured out until I actually moved there.

You see this when people struggle to map American political concepts onto the Canadian landscape. Who's the Donald Trump or Bernie Sanders of Canada? One of Donald Trump's first actions in office was to try to implement a "Muslim ban". Is he really like Doug Ford or Jason Kenney?

I used to think the US was a lot closer to Canadian culture but I've since travelled more south of the border, and to other countries and have changed my mind. I'm not even sure the US is a lot closer to Canada is than parts Western Europe. I think people get too caught up on superficial characteristics like accent and don't pay enough attention to cultural values and institutions, or even just basic day-to-day stuff like how much people drive vs. take transit, walk, or bike.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by begratto

Interesting read about an insecure Ontarian trying to fit in in the Montreal job market.

Sometimes anglos are afraid of applying to jobs in French-speaking environments, mostly due to their own insecurities. They often think their French isn't good enough, or are afraid to use it.

They should still give it a try and try to get out of their comfort zone. I think they don't suspect how positively they're seen if they're making the effort to speak and write French. It doesn't have to be perfect. Colleagues generally appreciate the courage it takes to make the move. There's even a "cool factor" to it. As in "wow, this guy moved from Nova Scotia, managed to learn French and works with us? Impressive".

I know it's stressful in the beginning (I'm from the opposite side of the language-mirror, and a lot of my day is spent in meetings with out-of-Quebec colleagues, in English), but you quickly get use to it, and your language skills improve dramatically.

This is my read also. I consider myself Ontarian since I lived in Ontario and Ottawa most of my life. But as someone who had its childhood in New Brunswick, both my English and French suck. I worked hard to be fluent in both languages but French people think I'm an Anglo and vice-versa.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by CityTech

The census data suggests otherwise. There are 592,035 Canadians who speak Mandarin and 565,275 who speak Cantonese, nearly tied. In Ontario, Cantonese is the 4th most common mother tongue language.

One of my close friends is Chinese-Canadian (born in Canada to immigrant parents from Guangdong), and she can sort of understand Cantonese but completely blanks over when someone speaks to her in Mandarin. I've went with her to lots of restaurants in Mississauga and Toronto where the language of the room was clearly Cantonese, as she was able to communicate.

Ah, I didn't realize the numbers were so close. But those Cantonese-speakers are old, while the statistics for the Mandarin speakers don't include the hundreds of thousands of recent arrivals without citizenship and those who are exchange students. Mandarin is very dominant in Chinese Ontario these days.

I can guarantee you that there are practically no restaurants in the GTA where the customers will all be speaking Cantonese. If the staff are all Cantonese speakers they'll be able to take orders in Mandarin, and I've witnessed situations where a different server with better Mandarin is called over if the order gets complicated.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

This is my read also. I consider myself Ontarian since I lived in Ontario and Ottawa most of my life. But as someone who had its childhood in New Brunswick, both my English and French suck. I worked hard to be fluent in both languages but French people think I'm an Anglo and vice-versa.

This is a bit unusual. Most of the people I know with a similar background ended up being strong in both languages, more often than not, native level with no accent. If not, at least one of the languages is dominant and they would be able to speak it with no accent, and with a slight barely-noticeable accent in the other. But yeah, things don't always go this way. Justin Trudeau is a good example. I know Celine Dion's oldest son is like that too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'd offer the opinion that alien would be too strong a characterization.

I'd like to think I quite understand America. I might not agree with some of the views, but I think I could at minimum understand the point of view of an 'average' person there. As you mention, your sister married a local - this isn't an oil to water situation.

Whereas somewhere like mainland China or Japan I would describe as alien. Would we laugh at the same jokes, as I laugh at something like the Simpsons? (at least the early seasons) Even if I was a native language speaker, I think I'd struggle with the overarching social interactions - there's levels of context to interactions I'd never really understand, having been raised in a low-context society. Sure, the Japanese are quite friendly to tourists, but I think I'd always been looked on as a gaijin if I tried to settle there. The interactions would be friendly, but I suspect I'd never have the candid take on things that I get here (or in America) if I sat down and had a few drinks with someone.

Anyway, I digress on the matter.

I am in general agreement with you, and I don't think you're being disrespectful. (How can you be, anyway? You're talking about your own people!)

But if we're talking about micro-aggressions and such (yeah, I know I'm the one who brought that up), another one is probably saying that (Anglo-)Canadians are exactly the same as Americans.

Some might even say that alluding to the existence of "Anglo-Canadians" as an identifiable group is also a micro-aggression.

In any event, I do think Rousseau has a point when he talks about what I think we could call mindset and demeanour.

There *is* a perceptible difference I would say between Canadians and Americans, though there are also differences within the US itself. As such, assuming there was no border would the mindset and demeanour fit in rather nicely among the variety in terms of mindset/demeanour that already exists across the US?

Is there is a Canadian mindset/demeanour that is predominant in Lower Sackville, Guelph and Sherwood Park but that drops down to zero as soon as you cross the border?

And if so, within the entire United of States of America and its 330 million people and infinite subcultures, is there no mindset/demeanour among those multitudes that is essentially the same as the Canadian one? Or that comes close enough?

Here I am using the same principles that I apply to accents. Yes, most Canadians who speak English do sound a bit different from Americans. But to me the accent is not alien to the point where, in the absence of a border, it could not be considered one accent among all the regional accents that already exist within the US: Boston Brahmin, New Yawk, Texas, California, Northern US Cities Vowel Shift, etc.

I mean, in many ways the Canadian accent in English is closer to "neutral American" than some accents that are native to the US.

(The Newfoundland accent is a notable exception - there aren't any accents native to the US that are similar to that.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

On the other hand, I know a Tunisian who moved to Montreal from Ottawa and encountered a heck of a time trying to find a position, until accepting a job in a factory. He got the usual "no Canadian experience" thing that many immigrants experience, but he was also told that his French needed work. His entire education, including his university degrees and subsequent college study in Canada had been in French. I've lost track of him, but last I heard he was unemployed.

I've been working in Quebec for two decades and I can't fathom that the French of a person with this profile would be a problem. I know tons of people from the developing world Francophonie (some of them close friends of mine) and none have ever had any problems adapting and being functional linguistically.

Last night I was at the optometrist and several of the staff there are from the international non-European Francophonie, and right next to me was a Middle Eastern lady speaking what was probably French that she learned in some Christian school in the old country taught by nuns from France, and she was serving an older working class Québécois couple who spoke joual (slangy lower class Quebec French) and they were communicating just fine and even joking around at times.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is there is a Canadian mindset/demeanour that is predominant in Lower Sackville, Guelph and Sherwood Park but that drops down to zero as soon as you cross the border?

Per capita gun ownership rates are higher in Connecticut than the Northwest Territories

29% of Canadians think religion is very important to their life. The US state with the lowest percentage of people answering the same way is Vermont, at 57%.

There are fewer people of Latin American origin in all of Canada (244k) than there are Hispanics in metropolitan Portland, Oregon (277k).

Those are just phenomena where statistics are kept.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

This is a bit unusual. Most of the people I know with a similar background ended up being strong in both languages, more often than not, native level with no accent. If not, at least one of the languages is dominant and they would be able to speak it with no accent, and with a slight barely-noticeable accent in the other. But yeah, things don't always go this way. Justin Trudeau is a good example. I know Celine Dion's oldest son is like that too.

My experience is more like p_xavier's.

And I think that this is perhaps more typical of francophones outside Quebec than it is francophones inside Quebec.

In my case both of my languages sucked for a long time in my life. Then at one point I decided to beef up my French as I found the way I spoke it to be embarrassing.

As a result my English declined a tiny bit.

Today though I wouldn't say that my French sucks, and I wouldn't say that my English sucks either. Though in the latter case in terms of speaking I am just short of sounding like a native speaker.

Even if you kind of backed into bilingualism accidentally as I did (like the proverbial Obélix falling into the vat of magic potion as a baby), it's still a big challenge to maintain a high degree of proficiency in both.

As soon as you let up on one a little bit it starts to lapse.