Idea: Replace Canada with "Canadian Union"?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

How would national defense work? Would each country have its own military? I believe EU members all have their own don't they?

Each would have its own military, or choose not to have a military. I suppose some sort of joint military could be negotiated.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

More likely, the successor states/former provinces would take on the obligations, with negotiations to address the necessary adjustments.

Well actually that would be difficult in practice. Since the treaties are negotiated with the Federal government, they would be pretty much null and void. I can't really see a scenario where they would continue to be effective, some party at some point along the line would want to revisit or renegotiate some sections etc. They would have to be re-ratified at the least in each newly created jurisdiction or at the worst, renegotiated from the ground up. It could be possible that leadership from the newly created states and first nations within those lands agree to continue the arrangement as it stands but this could create some chaos as funding sources would change etc.

I couldn't really see a scenario either where the fracturing of Canada would not induce such chaos as to make this outcome likely. Some places would certainly carry on, but for the rest it would probably (literally) be the wild west, at least in a legal sense.

There's no telling what these new states would enact in their constitutions either. I don't think this is a desirable scenario in any way really.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Well actually that would be difficult in practice. Since the treaties are negotiated with the Federal government, they would be pretty much null and void. I can't really see a scenario where they would continue to be effective, some party at some point along the line would want to revisit or renegotiate some sections etc. They would have to be re-ratified at the least in each newly created jurisdiction or at the worst, renegotiated from the ground up. It could be possible that leadership from the newly created states and first nations within those lands agree to continue the arrangement as it stands but this could create some chaos as funding sources would change etc.

I couldn't really see a scenario either where the fracturing of Canada would not induce such chaos as to make this outcome likely. Some places would certainly carry on, but for the rest it would probably (literally) be the wild west, at least in a legal sense.

There's no telling what these new states would enact in their constitutions either. I don't think this is a desirable scenario in any way really.

They were negotiated with the Crown. The successor states/former provinces could claim to be born of the ether, but that would require them to negotiate with their indigenous populations all over again (there's the chaos, not in continuity, as First Nationsl would probably claim all of the new States' territory). It would be far more likely that they would assume federal responsibilities as successor states, as they would with international treaties, and then negotiate any necessary "tweaks".

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Each would have its own military, or choose not to have a military. I suppose some sort of joint military could be negotiated.

Perhaps I will join the NS navy which will consist of the Bluenose and Theodore Tugboat.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by mintzilla

saying we are all angry and divided is BS

the media is just pushing that garbage to get clicks and views. the average Canadian is just trying to live their lives. just because some edgelords on twitter and reddit post some garbage doesnt mean they speak for the average person.

you must not be in Alberta, S**T is going down around here people are pissed off and talking about #wexit. There are facebook groups going crazy with each other, and over 90,000 signatures now to leave Canada.

It's kinda fun to watch

[Architype]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Each would have its own military, or choose not to have a military. I suppose some sort of joint military could be negotiated.

PEI would depend on Nova Scotia to protect it, and it might even be similar for some other "provinces".

[SpongeG]

so if Alberta wants to "leave" they can:
- form their own currency
- passports
- negotiate with the countries on where the passports are able to be used
- require work permits for people from outside of Alberta
- people can renounce their Canadian citizenship or move back to Canada
- Set up their own banks as banks have to pull out
- Does westjet move its headquarters to Canada or stay in Alberta?
- Fund their own healthcare and education
- set up their own tax system
- import food from Canada
- negotiate trade deals with the USA, Canada and Europe etc.
- what else?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Architype

PEI would depend on Nova Scotia to protect it, and it might even be similar for some other "provinces".

It would be great if they decided to join us. That way we could not only have the Bluenose and Theodore Tugboat, we could also have one of those cut-open milk carton boats!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

so if Alberta wants to "leave" they can:
- form their own currency Or use the Canadian or U.S. dollar
- passports Yes
- negotiate with the countries on where the passports are able to be used No biggie - the real issue would be visa requirements
- require work permits for people from outside of Alberta If they wanted
- people can renounce their Canadian citizenship or move back to Canada Unlikely - they'd probably recognize dual nationality
- Set up their own banks as banks have to pull out Or not
- Does westjet move its headquarters to Canada or stay in Alberta? That would be up to Westjet
- Fund their own healthcare and education Yep
- set up their own tax system Yep
- import food from Canada Among others, yep
- negotiate trade deals with the USA, Canada and Europe etc. Yep, probably
- what else?

Determine a system of government and elect or appoint a Head of State; establish a system of courts including a Supreme Court; establish a military and/or national police force; establish relations with other countries; join the UN and other international bodies (Commonwealth?); perhaps set up a postal service; man border posts and establish a customs regime; undertake hiring to staff all the above.

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Better yet, abolish the provinces in favour of a unitary state.

Couldn't agree more.

[SpongeG]

I being facetious but I would play hardball with the separatists screw them leave the country and do it on your own.

If you go read these groups they really have no idea what it entails. I am sure it will die out with time but some very angry people here.

[urbandreamer]

But is Alberta a distinct society?

(I've been to Calgary and it reminded me of Kitchener with more towers. Maybe Edmonton is like London. My point: Alberta votes like rural Ontario so maybe it should join Ontario.)

[SpongeG]

It's just seriously nothing I've ever experienced before. So much hatred and negativity it's doing my head in.

I just don't understand the mentality, Alberta needs to diversify its economy, the NDP were trying but got voted out. Where I am people are freaked out cause the main Employer Husky just laid off hundreds and about dozen locally. And now Kenny is making big cuts to services blaming it on the NDP.

What's wrong with trying to prepare for a future where oil is no longer king?

The reaction to that Greta kid was embarrassing, grown adults losing their minds over her being here. People against electric vehicles and green energy.

Change isn't easy but it has to happen, stop living in fear and think of your own future instead of relying on what worked in the past. It's almost ironic that they get so angry that the government won't do anything for them and yet they don't want to do it for themselves.

There is a big Wexit rally coming up on November 3rd in Edmonton, I hope no one goes.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Anyways, this all doesn't really affect me in any real way but I sense that a lot of people out east really don't have their finger on the pulse in this case.

you got that right! and it goes beyond Alberta.. if I'm not mistaken the secession movement is even stronger in Saskatchewan. I suspect there may be some strong sentiment in the non-GVA/VI parts of BC too. Manitoba seems a less likely participant, but I suppose that could come down to the deals offered.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

How would national defense work? Would each country have its own military? I believe EU members all have their own don't they?

They do, and most are in horrible shape! There has been plenty of talk of a combined EU army though.. we even saw a bit of it in action with the Yellow Vest protests in France. (EU flagged APCs, possibly non-French headbashers)

Any new entity made would have to play ball with NORAD, other military considerations would be dependent on the size of the secession area. Does the new entity have one seaport, or two?

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

More likely, the successor states/former provinces would take on the obligations, with negotiations to address the necessary adjustments.

Each former province would also need to decide if it were to be a successor state to Canada's international treaty obligations, and then enter into negotiations to make any necessary adjustments in the case of bilateral treaties. It would likely take many years.

why bring along any old baggage? leaving old constraints behind and simplifying the functions of government would definitely be a goal here.

Originally Posted by itom 987

If Canada ceases to be Canada, would the treaties with the natives become null and void?

most likely. a deal similar to Trudeau Sr's white paper is probable. welcome to property rights and equality

Originally Posted by SpongeG

so if Alberta wants to "leave" they can:
- form their own currency
hello gold backed crypto
- passports
- negotiate with the countries on where the passports are able to be used
- require work permits for people from outside of Alberta
- people can renounce their Canadian citizenship or move back to Canada
Border and immigration control is also a desirable outcome. there's been plenty of outside and overseas interest in this venture too...
- Set up their own banks as banks have to pull out
yep, and good riddance!
- Does westjet move its headquarters to Canada or stay in Alberta?
what good is WestJet without YYC?
- Fund their own healthcare and education
also in desperate need of overhauls
- set up their own tax system
hello flat tax, goodbye multi-billion dollar tax administration overhead
- import food from Canada
depending on the total area seceding, I don't see this as a huge issue. plenty of farm land in the west, and working on new methods of growing imported foods here could be a smart long term move regardless. the big one hits California and it will affect portions of the food supply of the whole continent
- negotiate trade deals with the USA, Canada and Europe etc.
continental free trade is a no-brainer, any trade overseas could be proxied through a continental partner until new direct deals were made
- what else?
Clearing the debt tab with ROC, and paying for some asset transfers (Cold Lake air base, Edmonton Garrison, CFB Wainwright and CFB Suffield, just for Alberta

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I being facetious but I would play hardball with the separatists screw them leave the country and do it on your own.

If you go read these groups they really have no idea what it entails. I am sure it will die out with time but some very angry people here.

well yeah, it's facebook..
it's so downstream culturewise it might as well be the gutter of the internet

[urbandreamer]

I predict oil makes a big recovery starting next year.

[technomad]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

But is Alberta a distinct society?

(I've been to Calgary and it reminded me of Kitchener with more towers. Maybe Edmonton is like London. My point: Alberta votes like rural Ontario so maybe it should join Ontario.)

beyond discontent with things like taxation and transfer payments, I suspect the ire at the lib's proposed gun ban is far greater in the west than the east.
there also seems to be less desire for the full menu nanny state here, lots of folks would prefer to look after their own, without interference from any level of government. (a less prevalent attitude around the urban areas and among newer arrivals of course, but a radical change in policies would quickly tell who came here for the freedom and opportunity, vs who came here for free shit from the gov)

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I just don't understand the mentality, Alberta needs to diversify its economy, the NDP were trying but got voted out.

Because diversification of an economy is not something a government can will into existence, even after throwing money at it. Real diversification occurs organically when you get more people and more money. Alberta in the end is only 4.4M people, a medium sized American city (or a tiny Chinese one). There's only so much human capital to go around, especially when you already have an incredible wealth generating industry with oil and gas, as well as very good industries in agriculture and tourism.

What's wrong with trying to prepare for a future where oil is no longer king?

Because if the past tells us anything about energy transitions (or rather the lack thereof), it's that oil will be heavily consumed for many, many years to come. The #3 source of energy in the world is still burning wood, plants and animal dung.

https://www.axios.com/despite-renewa...bce483473.html

And really, hasn't the supposed future energy industries of wind and solar already came and disappeared in the space of a few years in Canada. Can anyone tell me where these jobs transitioned to? Did they learn to code?

Siemens wind turbine plant at Tilsonburg: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...sing-1.4210184

CS Wind at Windsor: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...uiet-1.5058216

Canadian Solar plant at Guelph down to a single line (though apparently they hired 150 more employees in 2017 for at least a temporary period): https://www.guelphmercury.com/news-s...off-this-year/

So really, all of the high-value jobs only lasted as long as subsidies were around. The remaining jobs in Canada related to wind and solar are just installation and maintenance, nothing that generates wealth like exporting oil and gas.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

But is Alberta a distinct society?

(I've been to Calgary and it reminded me of Kitchener with more towers. Maybe Edmonton is like London. My point: Alberta votes like rural Ontario so maybe it should join Ontario.)

Glad to know I'm not the only one. Although K-W is a distinct society .....

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

But is Alberta a distinct society?

(I've been to Calgary and it reminded me of Kitchener with more towers. Maybe Edmonton is like London. My point: Alberta votes like rural Ontario so maybe it should join Ontario.)

Glad to know I'm not the only one. Although K-W/Region of Waterloo is a distinct society .....

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I predict oil makes a big recovery starting next year.

At which point 98% of the separatism talk out of AB-SK/West will die out.

Note that serious separatist movements don't suddenly eak and then simply disappear when the economy starts to pick up. (Says a guy who has seen it all over the years.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Canada_Concept