The 401

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by CF1Fan

The bottleneck in Windsor was/is primarily ambassador bridge and the fact that there's still no direct highway access to that bridge. Also, the widening has little to do with Windsor itself.

Regardless of that, I don't think the traffic on that section will increase enough such that it warrants widening of the highway. Either all traffic going to Sarnia would have to get routed to the 401, or population growth in the region would have be huge and you'd still need a substantial portion of the 402 traffic routed to the 401.

In any case, only a 11 km portion is funded at this point. The rest of it is still a long way away.

Which begs a few questions for me.

1) What happened to the reconstruction that was happening in this section that was supposed to happen for the entire stretch between Tilbury and London? Is it completely stopped because they now want to widen the highway, and the sections that haven't been reconstructed will be reconstructed with the widening?

2) What's the plan/timeline to replace the 401/highway 4 interchange? IIRC as per the previous Ontario Southern Highways program it was supposed to happen around 2021 or so. I haven't heard anything in the recent past.

They have deferred the reconstruction work at this time and will do it when they eventually get to widening.

From what I understand, there will be a shave and pave contract called for this summer for a stretch of highway in (if I am recalling correctly) western Elgin County. Unless that has been impacted by the coronavirus of course.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Trenton is growing.

Belleville is growing.

Kingston is growing.

While I think all of that is true. I don't see that as justifying the need to widen the 401 through Chatham-Kent with more of a priority than in other sections throughout southern Ontario.

Windsor isn't special. It doesn't need more highway than anywhere else in the province just because it's Windsor.

I agree but it comes down to safety and truck traffic. The 6-laning is just a side-benefit of adding the concrete median. Traffic volumes do not warrant it.

East of Cobourg, the 401 is arguably better designed than west of London overall. Some sections feature a tall wall or a wider grass median and there isn't as much risk for hazards like strong crosswinds.

For many it just comes down to trucks, trucks, trucks.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Hard to compare a totally new crossing with direct highway access to an old crossing with still a few miles of city streets until the highway. I'm fortunate that I never have to cross the border in the truck, but most of my cross border friends still cross at Sarnia, even going to Toledo or Cleveland, which crossing at Windsor seems to make more sense. And they said they plan to switch to the new bridge when it's ready.

Even if 2000 trucks per day switched from the 402 to the 401, (which isn't realistic at all, there are only just over 12,000 total vehicles using the 402 per day at the Blue Water Bridge), the 401 still wouldn't be anywhere near capacity through C-K or Elign.

Even in that fictitious scenario, the 401 between the eastern GTA and Kingston would still carry somewhere between 150 and 200 % of the traffic that it does anywhere west of London.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by haljackey

I agree but it comes down to safety and truck traffic. The 6-laning is just a side-benefit of adding the concrete median. Traffic volumes do not warrant it.

East of Cobourg, the 401 is arguably better designed than west of London overall. Some sections feature a tall wall or a wider grass median and there isn't as much risk for hazards like strong crosswinds.

The 401 through Northumberland County has enhanced ITS measures due to a microclimate that makes that section of the 401 more prone to inclement weather than most stretches of highway in the province:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pub...field-data.pdf

https://trid.trb.org/view/1399621

Originally Posted by haljackey

For many it just comes down to trucks, trucks, trucks.

You're right, everything east of Toronto is transported by packmule.

[CF1Fan]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

1) Good question. Last time I checked the section in late August 2019, I got off at Highway 40. From Highway 4 to Highway 40, aside from 2 spots, the cable barriers were up. I judged by the number of Speeding-Costs-You signs (which went from 4 to 2).

AFAIK they had reconstructed 60 km of eastbound lanes - 50 km stretch from the 6 lane to 4 lane change in Tilbury through to the Victoria Road exit, and a 10 km stretch closer to London. And around 35 km Westbound stretch had been reconstructed. The remaining pavement is in seriously bad condition, if they end up waiting for the widening it might take another 10 years for it to be reconstructed.

Originally Posted by sonysnob

They have deferred the reconstruction work at this time and will do it when they eventually get to widening.

From what I understand, there will be a shave and pave contract called for this summer for a stretch of highway in (if I am recalling correctly) western Elgin County. Unless that has been impacted by the coronavirus of course.

I am not sure if you are talking about this contract:

https://www.raqs.merx.com/public/bul...f?id=327925601

At this time it looks like it's been awarded however I have no idea if any construction happened as well. In any case, isn't this effectively a waste of $13m? If they do this, it makes no sense to reconstruct this section probably for another 10 years. The rest of the roadway that hasn't been reconstructed is still in crap condition but I just hope they reconstruct it rather than wasting money on stop-gap measures.

[Dengler Avenue]

I think the elephant in the room is this: speed governor.
If it’s safe to take it off, go for it. If not, oh well it is what it is.
Anecdotally I’ve passed a wood-log truck in N.B. which was going 120 kph. On several occasions, I’ve also caught trucks going 106~110 (or 115? I don’t remember) kph on our 400-series freeways.
Funny enough, there’s a city in Ontario where trucks don’t have speed governors (possibly illegally so). Guess where?
Even allowing trucks to pass at 110 kph may ease things up a bit.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by CF1Fan

AFAIK they had reconstructed 60 km of eastbound lanes - 50 km stretch from the 6 lane to 4 lane change in Tilbury through to the Victoria Road exit, and a 10 km stretch closer to London. And around 35 km Westbound stretch had been reconstructed. The remaining pavement is in seriously bad condition, if they end up waiting for the widening it might take another 10 years for it to be reconstructed.



I am not sure if you are talking about this contract:

https://www.raqs.merx.com/public/bul...f?id=327925601

At this time it looks like it's been awarded however I have no idea if any construction happened as well. In any case, isn't this effectively a waste of $13m? If they do this, it makes no sense to reconstruct this section probably for another 10 years. The rest of the roadway that hasn't been reconstructed is still in crap condition but I just hope they reconstruct it rather than wasting money on stop-gap measures.

They did the cable median barrier this summer, but I'm not sure if they did the resurfacing work. I don't think they did, when I drove through in July, they had the cones set up for the cable median barrier, but not for the resurfacing. I could be wrong though, I didn't make it that far this fall.

This is the installed cable median barrier taken in September:

http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ep20_24x16.jpg

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I think the elephant in the room is this: speed governor.
If it’s safe to take it off, go for it. If not, oh well it is what it is.
Anecdotally I’ve passed a wood-log truck in N.B. which was going 120 kph. On several occasions, I’ve also caught trucks going 106~110 (or 115? I don’t remember) kph on our 400-series freeways.
Funny enough, there’s a city in Ontario where trucks don’t have speed governors (possibly illegally so). Guess where?
Even allowing trucks to pass at 110 kph may ease things up a bit.

My truck goes 105 and I get passed more than I can pass. And not even by just the Americans.

[sonysnob]

There is a lot of cheating in the trucking industry. Between the speed limiters and DEF deletes, it's the wild west out there.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

My truck goes 105 and I get passed more than I can pass. And not even by just the Americans.

By trucks? For real? Woah.
I mean, my eyes were opened when I saw trucks going 70-75 mph on I-94 through Western Wisconsin.

I don't know if this is possible: O.P.P. and M.T.O. should be relaxed about the 105-kph law as long as it's not an accident in the making. (Is it possible to know this in foresight?) Outside of Elgin and C-K, O.P.P. stops pulling people over for 120 kph already, so why not do the same with trucks going at 110 kph?

[sonysnob]

I remember being passed by a tanker truck who was driving in the HOV lane in Phoenix. They must have been doing 130.

You'd never see that in Ontario. And dare I say, you probably shouldn't see that in Phoenix either.

edited to add: it's in one of my videos. I edited the time stamp so it should start at the right moment.
https://youtu.be/tTeJ6UCJ4o4?t=640

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I remember being passed by a tanker truck who was driving in the HOV lane in Phoenix. They must have been doing 130.

You'd never see that in Ontario. And dare I say, you probably shouldn't see that in Phoenix either.

Actually, O.P.P. East pulled over a truck doing 130 kph a few years back (on the 401). Then O.P.P. NWR and O.P.P. NER also busted trucks going 20~40 kph (110 kph, 118 kph, 127 kph, 130 kph) over on Highway 17 up north.
But yes, a truck going 130 kph on the 4-lane section of 401 sounds very uncomfortable to me even if the driver's sober.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Actually, O.P.P. East pulled over a truck doing 130 kph a few years back (on the 401). Then O.P.P. NWR and O.P.P. NER also busted trucks going 20~40 kph (110 kph, 118 kph, 127 kph, 130 kph) over on Highway 17 up north.
But yes, a truck going 130 kph on the 4-lane section of 401 sounds very uncomfortable to me even if the driver's sober.

It was just a figure of speech. I know people break the law here.

[Dengler Avenue]

Tbh do we really care as long as goods arrive safe and sound (same with people)?
If those (possibly shady) logistics companies are okay with paying a bit more on gas, sure why not (provided that their drivers don’t set off a chain collision)?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The 401 through Northumberland County has enhanced ITS measures due to a microclimate that makes that section of the 401 more prone to inclement weather than most stretches of highway in the province:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pub...field-data.pdf

https://trid.trb.org/view/1399621



You're right, everything east of Toronto is transported by packmule.

This legitimately made me laugh out loud.

I think I only have one more thing to add to this topic. The residents along the 401 east of Toronto need to be just as vocal if not louder than the residents along the 401 west of Toronto. Add to that a similar voting record and maybe you'll get 401 widening 'on both sides'.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Tbh do we really care as long as goods arrive safe and sound (same with people)?
If those (possibly shady) logistics companies are okay with paying a bit more on gas, sure why not (provided that their drivers don’t set off a chain collision)?

We should care. What else are those "possibly shady" trucking companies ignoring if a basic speed limiter law is out the window for them? I would say that theirs are likely the trucks you don't want to see on the road at all, let alone going that fast, from a mechanical perspective. And they are likely going to be hiring the bottom of the barrel drivers who shouldn't be driving that fast either. Take the Humboldt Broncos accident trucker, out of his element already, and add 401 traffic.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by haljackey

This legitimately made me laugh out loud.

I think I only have one more thing to add to this topic. The residents along the 401 east of Toronto need to be just as vocal if not louder than the residents along the 401 west of Toronto. Add to that a similar voting record and maybe you'll get 401 widening 'on both sides'.

Give them a twinned Highway 7 between Peterborough and Carleton Place instead. It’s more justified than between 402 and New Hamburg.
(Well technically, aadt drops big time between Madoc and Perth, but with 401 getting ever busier, if we build, traffic will come.)

Originally Posted by Djeffery

We should care. What else are those "possibly shady" trucking companies ignoring if a basic speed limiter law is out the window for them? I would say that theirs are likely the trucks you don't want to see on the road at all, let alone going that fast, from a mechanical perspective. And they are likely going to be hiring the bottom of the barrel drivers who shouldn't be driving that fast either. Take the Humboldt Broncos accident trucker, out of his element already, and add 401 traffic.

Good point. O.P.P. rats out problematic trucks a bit too often. It’s the frequency that bugs me.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Windsor isn't special. It doesn't need more highway than anywhere else in the province just because it's Windsor.

Also, traffic on the 401 didn't spike on the 401 in either 2015 or 2016 after the extension of the 401 to the EC Row opened. If the new bridge was actually going to pull traffic off of the Bluewater Bridge, there would have been a spike in traffic after the first extension of the 401 opened. There wasn't.

The widening of the 401 is between Tilbury and London...that has nothing to do with Windsor. There would be no reason for traffic to spike after that stretch was built because there is still a bottleneck where trucks are forced onto a CITY street.

If anyone thinks Windsor has been given its share of provincial infrastructure dollars over the years, I'd respectfully disagree. We have had to deal with these polluting, belching trucks on city streets (going right past a high school for God's sake) for 60 YEARS because the province lacked the brainpower to connect the busiest highway with the busiest border crossing. Also, the E.C. Row Expressway in Windsor is an unsafe joke that is nowhere close to being up to highway standards because the province downloaded it onto the city even though it's a regional road.

[sonysnob]

Huron Church Road is and has always been a connecting link. The province commits funding for the road despite the fact that it's a city street.

Lots of other important roads across the province are connecting links. Windsor is far from unique in that regard.

If the province were to have retained control over Huron Church as Highway 3, the City of Windsor wouldn't have been able to allow gas stations and fast food restaurants along the corridor wherever they so chose, so blaming the province for the condition of Huron Church isn't a fair or well informed argument.

The arrangement of the EC Row isn't really any different than the arrangement of Hamilton's expressways, or Ottawa, or Toronto. I'd rather the EC Row be a highway personally, but it doesn't strike me that Windsor is really treated any differently than any other large southern Ontario municipality.

[Dengler Avenue]

I actually wonder why Highway 3 - Huron Church Road wasn't converted to a freeway back then. Or did Canada and U.S. just not want to feed Maroun?
And now Sandwich is literally sandwiched between 2 major crossings. Ah speaking of that, I miss Schwartz' smoked meat sandwich.
Anyway I digress.