Perimeter Highway | Winnipeg

[WildCake]

Most urban freeway standards require a minimum of 2 km between interchanges (starting at the exit ramps, not the “centre” of the interchange). 59/101 and 59/Birds hill road are already less than 2 km apart, so adding a RIRO for the sake of wal-mart’s (or whatever development) convenience would be counterproductive to the long term plan for Hwy 59 - even if the developer would be willing to pick up the tab.

We already see a similar weaving issue on Bishop at St vital mall. People merging on from St Mary’s have to accelerate as people slow down and exit from Bishop to the St Vital RIRO or continue through at higher speeds to exit at Dakota, along with people leaving st vital and trying to merge onto Bishop.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by WildCake

We already see a similar weaving issue on Bishop at St vital mall. People merging on from St Mary’s have to accelerate as people slow down and exit from Bishop to the St Vital RIRO or continue through at higher speeds to exit at Dakota, along with people leaving st vital and trying to merge onto Bishop.

This is why the conceptual plans for the grade separation(s) at Bishop and St Mary's/Dakota is challenging. There is not enough room between the 2 streets to safely have on/off ramps for each. It will be a diamond for each. They are guessing layouts would have to include a service road for both St Mary's/Dakota.

Bishop & St Mary's:
- Access from EB Bishop - Ramp, to Dakota - exit using St Mary's Ramp and use service road east to Dakota.
- Access from St Mary's to WB Bishop - Ramp, to EB Bishop will travel east via service road to Dakota (Ramp)


Bishop & Dakota
- Access from WB Bishop - Ramp, to St Mary's - exit using Dakota Ramp and use service road west to St Mary's.
- Access from Dakota's to EB Bishop - Ramp, to WB Bishop will travel west via service road to St Mary's (Ramp)

I hope that makes sense

[WildCake]

Thanks Biff, yeah I think this has been discussed in the winnipeg R&I page on how much of a mess that fix will be. I was using the Bishop issue as an example why a RIRO between perimeter/59 and Birds hill rd could be problematic, even if covered by the developer

[bomberjet]

I would think, as Biff has outlined, the on/off ramps of the diamond would essentially form the service road between Dakota and St. Mary's.

Say you're travelling Wb on Bishop and you want to turn left onto St. Mary's. You would need to exit at Dakota, take the service road/ramp all the way down to St. Mary's, then take the left turn onto St. Mary's.

Traveling in either direction on Bishop, there would only be one exit and one entrance to the freeway through that area. Essentially it would turn two interchanges into one long interchange. Getting around the 2km freeway guideline. Good design practice.

Now those service roads.. Likely need to be two lanes each direction, each side... You'll also get locals travelling through the area, using the services roads. Bishop could stay at 4 lanes in the area. Maybe expand to 6 lanes at either end if it's needed.

[esquire]

^ It really does not sound that complicated at all... just that you get off at EB St. Mary's for both St. Mary's and Dakota, and you get off at WB Dakota for both Dakota and St. Mary's. The service road gets you to both intersections. The Houston 610 loop is basically that type of design for 45 miles straight.

I have no idea how much this would cost and whether there's any hope of getting it built, but it would certainly be a game changer for traffic in that area. Talk about removing a bottleneck.

[CoryB]

Having driven past one such double exit mess is the states frequently over the last few years on vacation I can tell you they are a huge pain. You need extremely good signage to help people get off at the right point. What happens for me with the one I have seen in person is I misread the signs not being fully localized and go "that's not my exit" only to realize after the point of no return I missed my turn and the next point of correction is a good distance away. Imagine heading west on Bishop wanting St Marys, missing the exit ramp and then needing to make your way through the Pembina intersection to turn around as River is closed to cross traffic.

[esquire]

^ Let's face it, there isn't much intercity traffic on Bishop Grandin. It's almost all local/regional, and after missing the exit once or twice everyone will get the hang of it. Really no different than driving through any other interchange for the first time... who doesn't have the experience of missing an exit on an interstate and then driving an extra mile or two to turn around?

[bomberjet]

Proper signage. locals may miss it the first time because theyre not paying attention.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I was kind of shocked when I heard that earlier this year. But yeah, this is their last season.

Originally Posted by Biff

In my conversation with the area planner, the Meadows site is likely to be developed into housing. The zoning changes and access would be challenging for a commercial development the size of Wal-Mart. At this time there are no zoning changes of this type at the Red River Planning District.

Now the First Nations site just to the north of the golf course property would be able to develop a commercial site such as Wal-Mart. Still nothing official though.

Interesting. Thanks for that.

I guess it's a sign of the times. Golfing, as a recreational activity, has been on the decline since the 90s in North America. This province has grown by nearly 300,000 in that span and yet, there may be fewer golf courses now than there were 20 years ago.

[esquire]

^ The game really went through a boom phase in the 90s... lots of courses opened then. Of course, land was a lot less valuable then too. It's harder to justify the continued existence of a marginally profitable golf course when people are buying residential lots for 200 grand a pop.

[CoryB]

Re golfing - my perception could be somewhat skewed but it seems to be mostly white, middle class and better, genx and baby boombers. That is a demo that has essentially peaked and is actually starting to enter a decline.

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In terms of the Perimeter, its horrible design took another life on Friday night. This time a EB motorcycle entering SB Perimeter at Portage Ave collided with a large commercial truck and the rider died. The EB to SB ramp is actually slightly elevated above grade to merge into the SB flow as they are on the decline from the overpass. extended the merge lane about half a KM south would allow entry at grade and improve visibility. These are the types of changes the Perimeter desperately needs, not two extra lanes to handle the local traffic on the south Perimeter.

[esquire]

^ Merge lanes are dreadfully short, no argument there. I can't think of an interchange in this province other than Pembina/Bishop Grandin that provides adequate room to merge into traffic... all the others just kind of spit you out into the traffic lanes, which is no problem if it's not busy but can be harrowing if there are a lot of cars.

[EndoftheBeginning]

Westbound Roblin (50 kmh) onto northbound William Clement Parkway (80 kmh) has a sufficiently long merge that extends all the way from Roblin up to the bridge (325 m long)... not that most people know what to do with it. For reasons that escape me, most prefer to stop at the yield and wait for oncoming traffic to clear so they can cross all lanes of traffic immediately to get into the median lane. I see that one every day on my commute.

Of course, EB Portage onto SB Route 90 is an example of a ridiculous short merge - no doubt a function of the cost to add an extra lane to the bridge.

[esquire]

^ Winnipeggers will quite reasonably assume that a merge lane is very short and wait for traffic to clear accordingly. It's a perfectly sensible thing to do if you're not familiar with a particular intersection... long merge lanes are a rare exception around here.

[EndoftheBeginning]

^^ I can see that part, but the part I don't get is not merging when the immediate merge lane become clear. This is especially true on a road that has a fair length to it before the next controlled intersection. Once you merge, generally there is time to make further lane corrections into your desired lane.

My guess is that enough bad experiences with other drivers not recognizing a signalling driver and allowing them room to change lanes has meant a lot of people take the attitude that they won't merge until their final/desired lane becomes clear.

[esquire]

^ That is an issue here too, people not slowing down/changing lanes to let people in. It's always an eye opener driving in other jurisdictions when people take the initiative to let you into traffic.

Between those two factors (short merge lanes/drivers not letting others in), people here have good reason to be cautious at merge lanes.

[biguc]

Winnipeg drivers love to take their lane miles ahead and lose their minds if any hiccup makes them deviate from that line. So, they wait at a merge so they can cross all lanes of traffic (illegally) because their next move is a left turn. This is bad at Roblin and Morray but they pull the same kind of shit at the Marion/Stradbrook turn offs from St Mary's, with far worse effect. Even worse is in downtown rush hour, when idiots will turn right onto Donald, eschewing the wide open right lane in favour of a lane that doesn't end at the bridge, and blocking the open right lane in the mean time. If they would use the open lane, they could merge later and find themselves blocks ahead of drivers who dutifully wait in line, while also not impeding drivers who are using the right lane, and successfully obeying traffic laws.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by EndoftheBeginning

For reasons that escape me, most prefer to stop at the yield and wait for oncoming traffic to clear so they can cross all lanes of traffic immediately to get into the median lane.

The challenge is that Winnipeg lacks proper merge lanes in most places so drivers don't really learn how to use them properly when they exist.

In terms of a somewhat acceptable design WB Perimeter at McPhillips and SB Perimeter at CCW both have reasonable attempts at proper lane lengths, especially by Manitoba standards.

[StNorberter]

Another troubling development is the City's new trend of signing the beginning of a new lane as a yield. Examples include EB Scurfield to SB Kenaston and the exit of Superstore to EB bison drive.

Who are you yielding to? Somebody in a different lane? you come through the corner and you're the 1st possible vehicle in the lane. There is no way for someone to be there before you.

[bomberjet]

Part of the reason people don't know how to drive. Inconsistent signage everywhere.

Red yield signs are for when you have no acceleration lane and need to actually wait for other vehicles to pass.

Yellow merge signs are there when you have your own acceleration lane. You should NEVER have to stop when you have the yellow merge sign.