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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 8:18 AM
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 10:56 AM
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I live in St. Louis, and I cant think of violent enough words (gutted? strangled? slowly bled to death?) to describe St. Louis's relationship is with its suburbs. I've seen a few people mention in this thread that STL is "at war" with its suburbs. Lol, absolutely not; the suburbs won that war when they stole the county seat in 1877, and have proceeded to mercilessly strangle every last dollar, citizen, and institution out of the city for 142 years.

For a while there was so much growth that it barely made a difference; In the late 1800's, the city of STL was described (along with NYC and SF) as one of the three gems of America, and the city continued to boom for another half a century despite being parisitized the whole time by its surrounding county. At some point around 1960, st. louis city reached a peak 850,000 people, and then succumbed to the national white flight and suburbanization trend. But unlike other cities, the suburbs were already in control from the beginning, so as soon as the population of the county exceeded the city population, St. Louis city lost all of its voting power.

The suburbs have taken everything they possibly can from the city while paying back as little as possible. Now, in 2019, there is literally nothing left to take; the city is functionally bankrupt and has fallen from 856,000 people to 298,000. That is the largest percent drop of any city in the US over 100k, larger than the drops of detroit or youngstown, and continuing at 5-7% per year.

Whenever you think there could not possibly be anything left for the suburbs to strangle out of the city, they always end up finding something. As things stand now, the process will not stop until the city is fully abandoned, and that is not hyperbole. Unless something changes, st louis city will fall below 50k population by 2100
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 2:19 PM
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i didnt put much thought into this earlier, but as a resident of an inner suburb some persoective here...the central corridor is emerging as an overlay driving growth across city limits both ways, with transportation routes/rail lines and economic activity seamlessly operating across the municipal borders as one essentially operating as one unit.

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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
I live in St. Louis, and I cant think of violent enough words (gutted? strangled? slowly bled to death?) to describe St. Louis's relationship is with its suburbs. I've seen a few people mention in this thread that STL is "at war" with its suburbs. Lol, absolutely not; the suburbs won that war when they stole the county seat in 1877, and have proceeded to mercilessly strangle every last dollar, citizen, and institution out of the city for 142 years.

For a while there was so much growth that it barely made a difference; In the late 1800's, the city of STL was described (along with NYC and SF) as one of the three gems of America, and the city continued to boom for another half a century despite being parisitized the whole time by its surrounding county. At some point around 1960, st. louis city reached a peak 850,000 people, and then succumbed to the national white flight and suburbanization trend. But unlike other cities, the suburbs were already in control from the beginning, so as soon as the population of the county exceeded the city population, St. Louis city lost all of its voting power.

The suburbs have taken everything they possibly can from the city while paying back as little as possible. Now, in 2019, there is literally nothing left to take; the city is functionally bankrupt and has fallen from 856,000 people to 298,000. That is the largest percent drop of any city in the US over 100k, larger than the drops of detroit or youngstown, and continuing at 5-7% per year.

Whenever you think there could not possibly be anything left for the suburbs to strangle out of the city, they always end up finding something. As things stand now, the process will not stop until the city is fully abandoned, and that is not hyperbole. Unless something changes, st louis city will fall below 50k population by 2100
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 7:08 PM
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I haven't spent a ton of time in St. Louis, but in the visits I've made to the area, it did feel like the real locus of control is decidedly west of the downtown core. There is next to nothing just across the river in Illinois, which is not at all what I was expecting from a city situated right on a state boundary. Downtown feels not all that important and was pretty sleepy, dated, and honestly somewhat unimpressive. The really great parts of STL were the Central West End and points west of there...Forest Park, Del Mar Loop, area by Wash U and Clayton. This discussion of how the county has been trying to wrestle control of the region away from the city seemed pretty evident in my visits, even without knowing much of that history.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2019, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
I haven't spent a ton of time in St. Louis, but in the visits I've made to the area, it did feel like the real locus of control is decidedly west of the downtown core. There is next to nothing just across the river in Illinois, which is not at all what I was expecting from a city situated right on a state boundary. Downtown feels not all that important and was pretty sleepy, dated, and honestly somewhat unimpressive.
That’s because most of DTStL has been razed. East StL has also been on a downward spiral for 70+ years. The suburbs on the IL side of the Mississippi are actually relatively old towns (some settled in late 1700s) and are mostly middle income communities. Illinois was actually settled from the south northward rather than the opposite, which seems counterintuitive.

http://www.citytoriver.org/history/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399483429421571625/
https://nextstl.com/2013/05/what-the...bout-st-louis/
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 4:15 AM
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My city is Stereotypical a "giant Suburb" but the central neighborhoods and areas around the various city centers of Tempe, Scottsdale, Phoenix and Glendale are actually pretty urban.

But being a western city and very new its fully "multi-nodal" with people commuting out to job centers in neighboring suburbs almost as much as they commute in to the city core. (seriously is like a 55-45 kind of flow) the central city has the highest density of jobs in the metro but suburban employment areas are pretty big.

Edit:

If we are discussing rivalry and animosity, the East Valley (eastern Suburbs) are the wealthier, denser and more white collar side of the city, looks down on the "working class" west valley while the west valley generally sees the East as snobbish and overpriced. Scottsdale for a long time sat atop the pile as King of shit mountain but Scottsdale has really lost its aloofness in the last 10 years or so as Tempe and Phoenix have grown more urban and had a lot of gentrification. Scottsdale as a city has been fairly stagnant comfortable in its superiority until the last 18 months.

Now the fastest growing part of Scottsdale is actually just over the border in Phoenix (Kirkland area)
It may be because I live kind of close to central Phoenix, but, Scottsdale doesn't even come up in general conversation about "How was your weekend" or "You doing anything this weekend, or "what have you been up to". It now seems more like a tourist dominated area with a nice mall.

Like, I don't even live in a very nice area, but I live about a 1.5 miles from 40th st. and Indian School and that area is getting nice. Downtown Phoenix is gentrifying and Tempe and to some extent Phoenix are getting the new headquarters or regional headquarters that Scottsdale used to get 10 years ago.

Millenials and Gen X are now the bulk of the workforce and they want to work in places that are hip versus places that are convenient. ... Ok, that's a big generalization, so maybe it's more accurate to say that more of the bulk of the workforce in the US today wants to work somewhere hip rather than convenient compared to the the prior two generations. Scottsdale just isn't hip. it has very little urban appeal so it is stagnating.
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
That’s because most of DTStL has been razed. East StL has also been on a downward spiral for 70+ years. The suburbs on the IL side of the Mississippi are actually relatively old towns (some settled in late 1700s) and are mostly middle income communities. Illinois was actually settled from the south northward rather than the opposite, which seems counterintuitive.

http://www.citytoriver.org/history/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399483429421571625/
https://nextstl.com/2013/05/what-the...bout-st-louis/
its an exaggeration to say that most of downtown has been razed, it just hasn’t seen much infill. the greater area what might be called “downtown” but probably shouldnt, there *was* a lot of demolition (of an immense amount of fabric to start with compared to say a minneapolis) and of course for the arch. washington avenue and the cbd proper are probably more intact (of original fabric) than most midwestern cities, actually. economically its just sleepy as hell compared to the cwe/clayton.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by IrishIllini View Post
That’s because most of DTStL has been razed. East StL has also been on a downward spiral for 70+ years. The suburbs on the IL side of the Mississippi are actually relatively old towns (some settled in late 1700s) and are mostly middle income communities. Illinois was actually settled from the south northward rather than the opposite, which seems counterintuitive.

http://www.citytoriver.org/history/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/399483429421571625/
https://nextstl.com/2013/05/what-the...bout-st-louis/
The lack of....anything...on the Illinois side was surprising to me, as I thought it would be a similar situation to Cincinnati and the Northern Kentucky river cities that basically serve as an extension/continuation of the urban core just across the river. It just seems crazy to me that the Illinois side is so close to downtown, yet basically looks rural. I guess proximity to downtown isn't much of a selling point if the real business and economic center isn't downtown, but actually several miles west of the urban core. Still quite strange.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:36 PM
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The lack of....anything...on the Illinois side was surprising to me, as I thought it would be a similar situation to Cincinnati and the Northern Kentucky river cities that basically serve as an extension/continuation of the urban core just across the river. It just seems crazy to me that the Illinois side is so close to downtown, yet basically looks rural. I guess proximity to downtown isn't much of a selling point if the real business and economic center isn't downtown, but actually several miles west of the urban core. Still quite strange.
it's important to remember that east st. louis has experienced a monumental fall from grace.

east st. louis 1950 - 82,000

east st. louis 2018 - 26,000

that's a 68% decline!


by comparison, the two main kentucky cities opposite cincy haven't seen as epic of a decline.

covington/newport 1950 - 95,000

covington/newport 2018 - 55,000

that's a 42% decline.




also, east st. louis' core (what's left of it anyway) is pushed much further back from the river bank than covington/newport due to flood plain.

east st. louis: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...!4d-84.5085536

covington/newport: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...!4d-84.5085536
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 6:39 PM
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^ I think Sears' woes stemmed from some pretty shady corporate management over the past decade or so. Well after they abandoned the Sears Tower.

I live in a very Stepford 'exurban' area...30 miles from downtown and still live in Houston. Needless to say, Houston and the 'burbs are one in the same in a lot of ways.
JManc...sometimes I wonder if you've ever been to Houston, let alone live in it.

Houston and the suburbs could not be more different..In fact there is almost an entitled term for Houstonians who live inside the Loop ..Inner Loopers and they really do detest the suburbs.

How are they different?
Inner Loopers value public green spaces/parks, increased urban planning/density, mass transit, the amenities of the city, loathe communing to and from the suburbs as a way of life, and they tend to be moderate to left of center politically, they heavily encourage diversity and culture and appreciate Houston's eclectic dining scene.

The suburbanites, on the other hand, value chain restaurants and faux urban shopping centers. They value their kid's school district and McMansions on their own private lot over cultural amenities. They aren't as eager to embrace diversity and are lukewarm about the city's cultural spots. They tend to heavily vote republican, live in single family homes, and only support mass transit IF it were to include a route train from downtown to their front door DIRECTLY for, their convenience, and they overwhelmingly think the light rail system we have is a toy train waste. I could go on and on about their political differences.

Again, the INNER LOOP of Houston and the suburbs could not be more on two different pages..in fact they are reading two different books.

Source: A native Houstonian that grew up in a suburb but has lived "Inside The Loop" for almost 25 years now.
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 7:05 PM
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JManc...sometimes I wonder if you've ever been to Houston, let alone live in it.

Houston and the suburbs could not be more different..In fact there is almost an entitled term for Houstonians who live inside the Loop ..Inner Loopers and they really do detest the suburbs.

How are they different?
Inner Loopers value green spaces, increased urban planning/density, mass transit, the amenities of the city, loathe communing to and from the suburbs as a way of life, and they tend to be moderate to left of center politically, they heavily encourage diversity and culture and appreciate Houston's eclectic dining scene.

The suburbanites, on the other hand, value chain restaurants and faux urban shopping centers. They value their kid's school district and McMansions on their own private lot over cultural amenities. They aren't as eager to embrace diversity and are lukewarm about the city's cultural spots. They tend to heavily vote republican, live in single family homes, and only support mass transit IF it were to include a route train from downtown to their front door DIRECTLY for, their convenience, and they overwhelmingly think the light rail system we have is a toy train waste. I could go on and on about their political differences.

Again, the INNER LOOP of Houston and the suburbs could not be more on two different pages..in fact they are reading two different books.

Source: A native Houstonian that grew up in a suburb but has lived "Inside The Loop" for almost 25 years now.
Except for much of Houston proper and its population lies outside the Loop and if you get more specific, the "Loop" that Inner Loopers identify with is even a smaller region concentrated west of downtown and even there politics and values vary. Houston in general is pretty moderate. The contrasts between it and its suburbs (I include annexed areas like Kingwood and Clear Lake) is less dramatic. It's not like Chicago versus Schaumburg.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:07 PM
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Except for much of Houston proper and its population lies outside the Loop and if you get more specific, the "Loop" that Inner Loopers identify with is even a smaller region concentrated west of downtown and even there politics and values vary. Houston in general is pretty moderate. The contrasts between it and its suburbs (I include annexed areas like Kingwood and Clear Lake) is less dramatic. It's not like Chicago versus Schaumburg.
Have you ever lived inside the loop..lol.

Its day and night and btw..most consider outside the loop, even though technically "Houston" as suburbia. Kingwood may be "Houston" but not for purposes of the OP's original question..still a suburbia wasteland

Everyone in Houston knows living "in the city" means you live In The Loop....I'll even include Uptown in that group even though its just on the other side.

Again, there is a HUGE difference
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:28 PM
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it's important to remember that east st. louis has experienced a monumental fall from grace.

east st. louis 1950 - 82,000

east st. louis 2018 - 26,000

that's a 68% decline!


by comparison, the two main kentucky cities opposite cincy haven't seen as epic of a decline.

covington/newport 1950 - 95,000

covington/newport 2018 - 55,000

that's a 42% decline.




also, east st. louis' core (what's left of it anyway) is pushed much further back from the river bank than covington/newport due to flood plain.

east st. louis: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...!4d-84.5085536

covington/newport: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Co...!4d-84.5085536
east st louis was very much a sprawling railroad age industrial boom city. much of the surface area down by the river was railyards/roundhouses/ and absolutely massive maint. and coaling stations for eastern railroads on a scale much larger than anything in northern kentucky. ive drilled borings into the ground in this area and its like 7 ft of coal ash. it all was left to go back to nature and built over by highways as railroad technology/infrastructure/ownership changed.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:36 PM
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the entire american bottoms to the bluff is the same flood plain, again the only reason that space is there between downtown east st louis to the river is due to abandoned railroad infrastructure. theres a massive new orleans style levee protecting the entire floodplain for many miles.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:40 PM
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east st louis was very much a sprawling railroad age industrial boom city. much of the surface area down by the river was railyards/roundhouses/ and absolutely massive maint. and coaling stations for eastern railroads on a scale much larger than anything in northern kentucky. ive drilled borings into the ground in this area and its like 7 ft of coal ash. it all was left to go back to nature and built over by highways as railroad technology/infrastructure/ownership changed.
cool, thanks for the history lesson.

i had just assumed that east st. louis was pushed back from the river's edge for flood plain reasons.

was there an older "lost" core of east st. louis in the pre-railroad days that stood closer to the river's edge that was then subsequently buried under all of that railroad/industrial infrastructure?
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 8:58 PM
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Have you ever lived inside the loop..lol.

Its day and night and btw..most consider outside the loop, even though technically "Houston" as suburbia. Kingwood may be "Houston" but not for purposes of the OP's original question..still a suburbia wasteland

Everyone in Houston knows living "in the city" means you live In The Loop....I'll even include Uptown in that group even though its just on the other side.

Again, there is a HUGE difference
Dude, you need to learn to read. I considered Kingwood as a suburb but no one considers areas outside the Loop unless they are far flung beyond BW8 and/or 1960 as the suburbs. There's only the Inner Loop/ Outer Loop dichotomy. I've been here 23 years and you're the first to restrict "the city" to points within the Loop. Lawndale and Gulfgate are "the city" but Memorial City and the Voss/ Hilcroft area are not. Yeah..ok.

And yes, I've lived all over Houston and we are looking at houses inside the loop and own property in other areas around town.
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2019, 11:59 PM
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cool, thanks for the history lesson.

i had just assumed that east st. louis was pushed back from the river's edge for flood plain reasons.

was there an older "lost" core of east st. louis in the pre-railroad days that stood closer to the river's edge that was then subsequently buried under all of that railroad/industrial infrastructure?
all of the early drawings...charles dickens descriptions, etc, describe a massive swampy area with oxbow lakes, abandoned native american mounds. there still are parts that almost feel like the area around new orleans. the exception being late 17th-18th century canadien villages like cahokia that were sleepy until the high railroad and early chemical mfg age. most of that area was built very quickly as late 19th century/early 20th century company towns for steel, brass, oil, meatpacking, etc. it’s all really like northwestern indianas doppleganger. there wasnt much of a earlier/mid 19th century core like northern kentucky across from cincinnati. the areas that feel like that are in st. louis proper and are strikingly similiar.
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2019, 11:29 PM
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Except for much of Houston proper and its population lies outside the Loop and if you get more specific, the "Loop" that Inner Loopers identify with is even a smaller region concentrated west of downtown and even there politics and values vary. Houston in general is pretty moderate. The contrasts between it and its suburbs (I include annexed areas like Kingwood and Clear Lake) is less dramatic. It's not like Chicago versus Schaumburg.
Houston's urban/suburban divide politically is pretty evident just like any other metro area. The innerloop is solidly blue except for Afton and River Oaks and those areas are still somewhat moderate.

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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 12:09 AM
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Houston's urban/suburban divide politically is pretty evident just like any other metro area. The innerloop is solidly blue except for Afton and River Oaks and those areas are still somewhat moderate.

It's not just the Inner Loop, most of Houston proper is blue. My point again is that Houston is pretty moderate compared most other major cities. Tony Buzbee wouldn't have forced Turner into a runoff we weren't. That means there is a less of a disconnect between it and the surrounding suburbs. Houston is pretty slow to act in terms of recycling, sustainability, land use, mobility and so on which isn't going to upset the suburbs.
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Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 12:15 AM
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It's not just the Inner Loop, most of Houston proper is blue. My point again is that Houston is pretty moderate compared most other major cities. Tony Buzbee wouldn't have forced Turner into a runoff we weren't. That means there is a less of a disconnect between it and the surrounding suburbs. Houston is pretty slow to act in terms of recycling, sustainability, land use, mobility and so on which isn't going to upset the suburbs.
Houston is moderate because it is a 500 plus square mile city in the south. Harris County is larger than a sh*t ton of metropolitan areas and is still Democratic. In fact, it is no longer the only county in the region to go Democrat. If Houston was just the half a million people that live in the loop, measures that have to do with sustainability would be easier to pass and a hell of a lot more manageable to regulate.
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