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  #2301  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
So the city with no money wants to pump $20M into this project in the guise of “amenities”, $3M to the bum's plaza, $17 M for connections and skywalk connections. How about NO!

Like I said before, nothing can be built downtown without the stink of tax dollars!
This is exactly what TIF is supposed to do... it's facilitating a very substantial development. Skywalks and streetscaping are reasonable ways to redirect that money... what's the problem?
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  #2302  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:51 AM
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I think this is a good investment, and what TIF is all about.
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  #2303  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 5:39 AM
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My only concern is that these very large projects asking for tens of millions in TIF money will turn government and the public against TIF. The Province in particular hates the optics of these announcements handing huge money to big developers, even if it a good investment. The downtown residential grant program did so much good and got dozens of smaller projects built. These are the key to building neighbourhood downtown and stimulating growth...for a tiny fraction of the cost. If we don't get another program because of the optics of megaprojects killed TIF, that would be a real shame.

If I was in charge the TIF would cap out and be focused on small projects. It would be far more impactful.
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  #2304  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 8:33 AM
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If I was in charge the TIF would cap out and be focused on small projects. It would be far more impactful.
u must have some influence by now no?
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  #2305  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 1:31 PM
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Same as always - bump to keep the updating photo on the current page...

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  #2306  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 1:33 PM
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I am always amazed at the amount of scaffolding required to build a cast in place multi-floor building. Building with steel must be so much easier.
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  #2307  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
My only concern is that these very large projects asking for tens of millions in TIF money will turn government and the public against TIF. The Province in particular hates the optics of these announcements handing huge money to big developers, even if it a good investment. The downtown residential grant program did so much good and got dozens of smaller projects built. These are the key to building neighbourhood downtown and stimulating growth...for a tiny fraction of the cost. If we don't get another program because of the optics of megaprojects killed TIF, that would be a real shame.

If I was in charge the TIF would cap out and be focused on small projects. It would be far more impactful.
I don't see why it is preferable to provide TIF incentives to smaller developers only... if the Hofers want to renovate another 6 storey Exchange District building, then why should they get preferential TIF treatment while Artis or Longboat get shut out because they want to build 40+ storey buildings? To my mind we're either OK with TIFs or we're not.

I think the argument for doing away with them altogether is a lot stronger than changing up the TIF program to favour smaller developers just because they're smaller.
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  #2308  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 2:16 PM
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Great-looking project. Stoked for Winnipeg.
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  #2309  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 2:21 PM
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Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
My only concern is that these very large projects asking for tens of millions in TIF money will turn government and the public against TIF. The Province in particular hates the optics of these announcements handing huge money to big developers, even if it a good investment. The downtown residential grant program did so much good and got dozens of smaller projects built. These are the key to building neighbourhood downtown and stimulating growth...for a tiny fraction of the cost. If we don't get another program because of the optics of megaprojects killed TIF, that would be a real shame.

If I was in charge the TIF would cap out and be focused on small projects. It would be far more impactful.
Well, it's a big project and it's really a public amenity so it requires a lot of resources. Once again, it raises the issue of the current government nickling and diming and losing out on shared cost projects - witness the art gallery where federal dollars are waiting to flow but won't unless the province kicks in its share. Relatedly, there's also an article in the FP today about how Ottawa is getting fed up with Pallister's cowboy act. Everyone has signed onto the health deal but Manitoba.
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  #2310  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 2:22 PM
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^Sort of. Part of the question is what does the city want to achieve in the end. Helping small developers renovate smaller buildings does a lot for the character of the city for Winnipeg and Winnipeg is head and shoulders above most of Canada and North America for having that.

Does Winnipeg potentially lose out on bigger developments? Probably. As an outsider I don't see that as a problem though because I see a lot of development in Winnipeg right now. True North, Main, Glass. There's lots going on and somehow Winnipeg is maintaining a lot of older stock which can't be said about places like *cough Regina.
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  #2311  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 2:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
So the city with no money wants to pump $20M into this project in the guise of “amenities”, $3M to the bum's plaza, $17 M for connections and skywalk connections. How about NO!

Like I said before, nothing can be built downtown without the stink of tax dollars!
Hey, I like your new slogan. Looks good on you.
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  #2312  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 2:54 PM
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Hey, I like your new slogan. Looks good on you.
Hey someone noticed!


So earlier in the week we hear Bowman and city council crying poor because we shot the wad with the snow clearing budget (city had to spend money to clear basically the one snowfall we had in the winter of 16-17) but miraculously there is $20M to funnel into the TNSE project. Either the city has money or it doesn't, Bowman and council come across looking like complete idiots if they approve this!
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  #2313  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Hey someone noticed!


So earlier in the week we hear Bowman and city council crying poor because we shot the wad with the snow clearing budget (city had to spend money to clear basically the one snowfall we had in the winter of 16-17) but miraculously there is $20M to funnel into the TNSE project. Either the city has money or it doesn't, Bowman and council come across looking like complete idiots if they approve this!
The $20M isn't magically appearing, it's the tax increment that will be generated by the development itself. It there was no development, there wouldn't be the $20M to redirect to skywalks and streetscaping.

I guess the big question is whether the development would have happened without the government's commitment to pay for skywalks and streetscaping. If no, then the TIF is a success. If yes, then the TIF is a waste of money in this case.

The funny thing with TIF is that when it was first rolled out it was held up as an example of a way to get companies to invest in blighted areas... think Selkirk Avenue, not York Avenue. It wasn't really sold as a way to get downtown development happening, but that seems to be the most prominent use of it these days.
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  #2314  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
Hey someone noticed!


So earlier in the week we hear Bowman and city council crying poor because we shot the wad with the snow clearing budget (city had to spend money to clear basically the one snowfall we had in the winter of 16-17) but miraculously there is $20M to funnel into the TNSE project. Either the city has money or it doesn't, Bowman and council come across looking like complete idiots if they approve this!
Wasn't this grant already in the budget as part of the program? And isn't TNSE already under construction - construction that was contingent on the grant? Further, what do you have against hundreds of millions of dollars of private investment in downtown?
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  #2315  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:12 PM
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Small projects are indeed desirable, but so are large projects.

I could care less what Joe Q Public thinks because this is necessary to develop our downtown. It is what dozens of other state and municipal governments continue to offer developers who would not otherwise proceed with their projects.

Government officials need to do what is right for the heart of the city, and if they have to scream at the top of their lungs citing the virtues of TIF, well, that is what they need to do.
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  #2316  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:14 PM
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Wasn't this grant already in the budget as part of the program? And isn't TNSE already under construction - construction that was contingent on the grant? Further, what do you have against hundreds of millions of dollars of private investment in downtown?
I'd be really impressed if TNSE didn't feel the need to take a dime of tax dollars for this project!

Not taking a dime would really stand out because it would be the first project built downtown in 50 years without the stink of govt. money attached to it!
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  #2317  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:15 PM
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We all want that, but...
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  #2318  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rrskylar View Post
I'd be really impressed if TNSE didn't feel the need to take a dime of tax dollars for this project!

Not taking a dime would really stand out because it would be the first project built downtown in 50 years without the stink of govt. money attached to it!
I dunno... kicking back a maximum of $20M in taxes to fund a skywalk and streetscaping doesn't seem like the worst deal in the world to get a $400M development.

I can't imagine that this development hinged on the TIF, but that said it's not a terrible deal.
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  #2319  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 3:47 PM
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I dunno... kicking back a maximum of $20M in taxes to fund a skywalk and streetscaping doesn't seem like the worst deal in the world to get a $400M development.

I can't imagine that this development hinged on the TIF, but that said it's not a terrible deal.
Just how close is our downtown to being in a stage where everything built doesn't need govt. funding, are we there yet, are we close, will it ever be the case?
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  #2320  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2017, 4:02 PM
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Just how close is our downtown to being in a stage where everything built doesn't need govt. funding, are we there yet, are we close, will it ever be the case?
Everything costs money... TNSE could have built this on Bishop Grandin and then the city would have been on the hook for millions in intersection improvements and whatever other upgrades.

Let's remember that the city spent $22 million on road upgrades in preparation for IKEA opening, so to say that this is somehow just a downtown thing is wrong.
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