HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1841  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 3:12 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 4,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Great evidence for HFR's thesis of frequency increasing ridership.
Agreed!

Quote:
Not so great for Lakeshore service at Kingston though. Can fewer and better timed trains actually get higher ridership?
First of all, I am not sure that VIA believes they will increase ridership along the Lakeshore. The question is, can the preserve the existing ridership?

Not only will the trains be better timed, they will have more stops. A train through a community might as well not exist if it doesn't stop at the local station.

Looking at the latest schedule, of the 15 eastbound* departures from Toronto, here are the number of arrivals at each of the stations along the way (I included Gananoque and Brockville as they are arguably an extensions of the Lakeshore):
Oshawa		14
Kingston 13
Cobourg 9
Belleville 8
Brockville 7
Guildwood 5
Port Hope 3
Napanee 2
Trenton Jct. 2
Gananoque 1
Obviously Oshawa and Kingston will see a reduction in service but most of the other cities will see an increase in service (in some cases a significant increase). There will also be improved connectivity between those intermediary cities as more trains will stop at both cities.

* Eastbound is arguably a better representation of the existing schedule than westbound as Trains 50/60 and 52/62 depart Toronto (and run along the Lakeshore) as a single train (splitting at Brockville), thus the schedule is more evenly distributed. Westbound it isn't feasible to join the trains (due to the potential of delays to one of them) so often trains will run back to back and thus can't really be counted as separate trains.

Quote:
Does really slow how much traffic is there between the major metros (including their burbs).

Wanted to add. Absolutely amazing work by Johnny Renton.
Agreed. It is a great analysis. Well done Johnny Renton!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1842  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2020, 3:30 PM
bradnixon bradnixon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoTrans View Post
The service west of Toronto has seen nothing but reductions in frequency over the years since 1990. In 1990 there were 5 trips a day between London - Kitchener - Toronto and 6 trips a day between London - Brantford - Toronto for a total of 11 round trips per day between London and Toronto.
In the Twitter thread, he explains how the VIA ridership declines in SW Ontario can be explained by increased GO service, and that when VIA and GO ridership is combined, actually shows significant increases.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1843  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 3:52 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,125
roger,

Thanks for tracking the stop frequencies. Interesting data. Without through traffic, I wonder what level of service can be sustained. Does Kingston get 6 trains each way to reach major metro daily? 10? Do all of them make all stops en route or do they get a few extra services which are express?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1844  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 3:10 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 4,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
roger,

Thanks for tracking the stop frequencies. Interesting data. Without through traffic, I wonder what level of service can be sustained. Does Kingston get 6 trains each way to reach major metro daily? 10?
In post #1037, I linked to a map provided by Kingston's Mayer. I don't know where he got the numbers from, or how real they are, but it says that from Kingston there would be:
  • 12 trains to Toronto
  • 6 trains to Montreal
  • 6 trains to Ottawa

If this is correct, the biggest reduction will be in the number of trains between Kingston and Ottawa (though the number of trains between Brockville and Ottawa may actually increase).

In the long run, it might make sense for GO to take over regional service in Ontario (at least west of Kingston) and have VIA focus on intercity service.

Quote:
Do all of them make all stops en route or do they get a few extra services which are express?
Hard to say. I don't think they would have any trains without any stops between Union and Kingston (like trains 40, 43, and 45 do today)*. They might have some trains with only 1 stop, but not as many as today (trains 42, 44, 63, 67, 69, 647, and 669)*. Looking at eastbound only, 3 of 13 trains to Kingston have 0 or 1 stop.

* Showing trains in both directions. Odd is westbound even is eastbound.

A strange thing is that the 2 eastbound trains that don't stop in Kingston stop in Oshawa/Cobourg/Brockville and Oshawa/Belleville, yet the one train that doesn't stop in Oshawa stops in Kingston only.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1845  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 6:50 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 9,117
Even if Kingston were to become a hub, trains in most cases will not 'end' in Kingston as there will be the need for people to go through Kingston to reach other destinations including the three major cities. HFR will eliminate big city to big city travelers only along the Lakeshore route.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1846  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2020, 8:06 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 140
https://www.facebook.com/groups/6370...8466248623923/

Quote:
MEET VIA RAIL's New Fleet (Updated)
This had been in CRO VIA NEWS early last year (as a pdf) but it since been modified improved and uploaded for the Canadian public to see by VIA with the video.
https://corpo.viarail.ca/en/projects...cement-program
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1847  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2020, 3:29 AM
Urban_Sky Urban_Sky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Montreal
Posts: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Looking at the latest schedule, of the 15 eastbound* departures from Toronto, here are the number of arrivals at each of the stations along the way (I included Gananoque and Brockville as they are arguably an extensions of the Lakeshore):
Oshawa		14
Kingston 13
Cobourg 9
Belleville 8
Brockville 7
Guildwood 5
Port Hope 3
Napanee 2
Trenton Jct. 2
Gananoque 1
You posted almost the same table a year ago, to which I replied with this more detailed table and the following comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
It's not just about the number of connections offered between these cities and Toronto (or Ottawa or Montreal), it's about the number of connections offered between these intermediary cities:

Note: I'm ignoring connections which depart less than 30 minutes after a previous train serving the same O-D.

There is currently not a single connection between Montreal and Gananoque, Napanee, Trenton Junction or Port Hope (and v.v.), just like there is no connection from Ottawa to Napanee or Port Hope and Ottawa (though there are 2 connections in the opposite direction). Even between the major cities along the Kingston Subdivision (Cobourg, Belleville, Kingston) certain O-D's are surprisingly infrequent, such as Kingston=>Cobourg (6x, though 8x times in the opposite direction) or Belleville=>Cobourg (5x, opposite direction: 6x), and with substantial gaps like between Belleville and Cobourg (#41 departs at 8:16, #65 is the next connection at 14:27, i.e. more than 6 hours later). The current timetable is the result of trying to serve two distinct markets with different needs (end-to-end markets desiring short travel times vs. intermediary markets requiring frequent and multiple stops), but separating the two markets and serving them with two different routes will allow intercity trains to do what they can do best: providing reasonably fast and frequent connections along a string of cities...
__________________
Disclaimer: I am employed by VIA Rail. However, the opinions expressed here are my own and VIA is in no way liable or responsible for their content. Comments and figures posted by me here should be treated as the work of an enthusiastic University student currently researching part-time on related topics and not in any way be linked to my employment at VIA Rail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1848  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2020, 2:30 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 4,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
You posted almost the same table a year ago, to which I replied with this more detailed table and the following comments:
Yes I did post something similar, though it was based on westbound trains. As I explained in my newer post, "Eastbound is arguably a better representation of the existing schedule" so I thought it worth redoing.

As for your response to my post a year ago, I did say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
There will also be improved connectivity between those intermediary cities as more trains will stop at both cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1849  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 5:23 PM
Allandale25 Allandale25 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 140
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1850  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 5:54 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Stittsville, ON
Posts: 4,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
Just to be clear, this is about south-western Ontario HSR and would not affect Eastern Ontario (the train would not travel east of Toronto).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #1851  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 5:56 PM
Dengler Avenue's Avatar
Dengler Avenue Dengler Avenue is online now
Highway Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Nowhere on the 17 or 417, actually
Posts: 3,927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allandale25 View Post
Post it on the main Via thread by swimmer_spe.
__________________
On ne rien manquera.
Reply With Quote
     
     
End
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:53 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.