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  #1201  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Viking and Royal Caribbean/ Carnival are not even on the same level. The latter two are floating buffets with drunks and water slides while Viking tends to be more about the sites and scenery. I've only been on Royal Caribbean a couple of times and it was ok and I was more impressed by the ship itself because it was a feat of engineering but would love to do this GL cruise (and a Detroit port of call would be cool) or Alaska. Those ships are small and lack the bells and whistles like the big ships.
A floating buffet is the perfect way to describe my experience on a Royal Caribbean cruise. There were people who didn't even want to leave the boat for excursions and just sit on the deck and drink on a lounge chair. Why not save yourself a couple thousand and just go to an all-inclusive in Cancun or something?
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  #1202  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
A floating buffet is the perfect way to describe my experience on a Royal Caribbean cruise. There were people who didn't even want to leave the boat for excursions and just sit on the deck and drink on a lounge chair. Why not save yourself a couple thousand and just go to an all-inclusive in Cancun or something?
I liked them because it was probably only chance for me to get to see some of the places in the Caribbean. Those same drunks would often make a bee-line to cheesy American owned chains just off the ship like Jimmy Buffett's Margaritaville in places like Jamaica and drink frozen margaritas in plastic cups.
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  #1203  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 7:02 PM
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Maybe this question doesn't have an easy answer, but I've always seen the north side of Navy Pier as an underutilized domain which would someday host these types of ships. . . aside from the obvious ($$$ or lack thereof) what obstacles would we face? There is a plan to turn that section of Navy Pier into a marina with transient moorings for smaller boats, but I think that's going to turn out to be a waste as I don't think the demand is there to support it. . . that plan could easily be cut in half to give space for a larger vessel. . . some dredging would likely be required. . .

Thoughts???

. . .
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  #1204  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
btw, to put the size difference of this new viking ship into perspective, i looked up the sizes of some of the current ships that cruise the great lakes:

Victory I: 300' LOA/5,000 tons
Victory II: 300' LOA/5,000 tons
Pearl Mist: 325' LOA/5,100 tons
Hanseatic Inspiration: 470' LOA/15,000 tons

Viking Octantis: 670' LOA/30,000 tons


in terms of size, this is a whole other level of cruise ship, the likes of which the great lakes have never seen.

and considering the locks on the st. lawrence seaway/welland canal limit max. ship size to ~740' in length, this ship is getting pretty close to the maximum size cruise ship that could ever get into the great lakes. we'll never see anything substantively larger than this ship cruising on the great lakes.
Pleasure cruise ships, yes... but I'm sure you realize the massive lengths of Great Lakes freighters. I believe the shortest one of the fleet is nearly 700'... with multiple 1,000+ footers. Just have to mention since I don't think most people realize the absolutely monstrous ships that navigate the Lakes (and since my grandfather built two of the biggest, the Cort and the Tregurtha, both 1,000 footers).
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  #1205  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 8:08 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
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It would be nice to have a ferry service running between Chicago, Milwaukee, a stop close to Indiana dunes and up to Michigan City/New Buffalo. Something similar to the Ferry system in the San Francisco bay area.
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Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
Maybe this question doesn't have an easy answer, but I've always seen the north side of Navy Pier as an underutilized domain which would someday host these types of ships. . . aside from the obvious ($$$ or lack thereof) what obstacles would we face? There is a plan to turn that section of Navy Pier into a marina with transient moorings for smaller boats, but I think that's going to turn out to be a waste as I don't think the demand is there to support it. . . that plan could easily be cut in half to give space for a larger vessel. . . some dredging would likely be required. . .

Thoughts???

. . .
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  #1206  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 8:34 PM
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So I assume this is gonna stop at port Detroit in downtown making it the largest passenger ship ever to do so. Pretty neat.

But lord are cruise ships a colossal waste of human resources and environmentally destructive. I cannot imagine spending 6k on something like this when I can just drive to all these locations in a fraction of the time and fraction of the cost. But I guess I'm not the target market.
My girlfriend and I are (semi-ironically) looking into doing one of the Euro river Viking cruises. We certainly aren't the target demo but for like 3500 you get to visit some cool cities from an interesting vantage point.
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  #1207  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom In Chicago View Post
Maybe this question doesn't have an easy answer, but I've always seen the north side of Navy Pier as an underutilized domain which would someday host these types of ships. . . aside from the obvious ($$$ or lack thereof) what obstacles would we face? There is a plan to turn that section of Navy Pier into a marina with transient moorings for smaller boats, but I think that's going to turn out to be a waste as I don't think the demand is there to support it. . . that plan could easily be cut in half to give space for a larger vessel. . . some dredging would likely be required. . .

Thoughts???

. . .
There's that barrier 'island' thing with the light houses just beyond Navy Pier. Would that complicate things? I know there's those other ships on the other side of the Pier but they are smaller.
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  #1208  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 10:26 PM
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My girlfriend and I are (semi-ironically) looking into doing one of the Euro river Viking cruises. We certainly aren't the target demo but for like 3500 you get to visit some cool cities from an interesting vantage point.
My parents do Viking cruises/tours every year, usually in Europe or Middle East. They're in their early 70's, and claim to be among the youngest passengers. They love it, but not for me.
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  #1209  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 11:49 PM
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My parents do Viking cruises/tours every year, usually in Europe or Middle East. They're in their early 70's, and claim to be among the youngest passengers. They love it, but not for me.
Because you're not 70. My mother-in-law and her sister love cruises because they can travel the world relatively easily, they just sail from one place to another. They are sailing from Cork, Ireland to St. Petersburg, Russia in May and have the luxury of having their hotel room travel along with them.
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  #1210  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 3:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Chisouthside View Post
It would be nice to have a ferry service running between Chicago, Milwaukee, a stop close to Indiana dunes and up to Michigan City/New Buffalo. Something similar to the Ferry system in the San Francisco bay area.
About 22,000 trips are taken on on Bay Area ferries each workday, but the distances are much shorter than what you're contemplating. The longest route is about 25 miles, between San Francisco's Ferry Building and downtown Vallejo. Chicago Navy Pier to Michigan City would be 35 miles or so if the ferry can make a beeline in open water, but Milwaukee would be about 85 miles by water (give or take), and that's a long ride for a daily commuter, especially in inclement weather.

I thought Seattle might be a better model for what you're proposing, as it is the country's biggest ferry system with about 83,000 daily trips, but their longest routes also appear to be within the 25-30 mile range.
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  #1211  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
viking cruises is most famous for their european river cruises. they've since branched out to become a global cruise line, but their niche is still in smaller-scaled, more specialty oriented cruising, and these new great lakes and polar expedition cruises certainly fit right into that mold. they don't operate any of those 5,000+ passenger beasts that sail the caribbean and the med. they sail in those waters too, but with much smaller ships. they're oriented towards the market that is looking for something a little different, and can afford to pay for it.



a huge part of their clientele for these great lakes cruises will be wealthy europeans who are looking for something different, something off the beaten path.




btw, to put the size difference of this new viking ship into perspective, i looked up the sizes of some of the current ships that cruise the great lakes:

Victory I: 300' LOA/5,000 tons
Victory II: 300' LOA/5,000 tons
Pearl Mist: 325' LOA/5,100 tons
Hanseatic Inspiration: 470' LOA/15,000 tons

Viking Octantis: 670' LOA/30,000 tons


in terms of size, this is a whole other level of cruise ship, the likes of which the great lakes have never seen.

and considering the locks on the st. lawrence seaway/welland canal limit max. ship size to ~740' in length, this ship is getting pretty close to the maximum size cruise ship that could ever get into the great lakes. we'll never see anything substantively larger than this ship cruising on the great lakes.


Yes, and the other hindrance is that larger, ie.; taller ships can't sail under the bridges at and East of Quebec City. The Laviolette bridge in Trois-Rivières is pretty tall, it might, but the two big bridges that span QCity's shores wouldn't. QCity's can and does receive the very big cruisers and there are more visitors every year from Europe on these trips. Montreal gets a lot of cruise ships too, but the much bigger ones stop in QC. Some of the Montreal bridges would also hinder the passage where the Seaway locks begin. There are 4 major spans, 5 if you count the Lafontaine tunnel-bridge. The old Champlain bridge will be demolished soon, and was purpose built with the idea of large ships in the fifties,
but I doubt the new Champlain bridge which is much taller on the locks side would allow the tallest cruisers. Either way, what distinguishes the largest of these ships is the height, as much as the length of them.
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  #1212  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 4:54 PM
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^ a lot of people do the cruise from nyc up the new england east coast and then down the st. lawrence to quebec and back. its very popular.


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  #1213  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
About 22,000 trips are taken on on Bay Area ferries each workday, but the distances are much shorter than what you're contemplating. The longest route is about 25 miles, between San Francisco's Ferry Building and downtown Vallejo. Chicago Navy Pier to Michigan City would be 35 miles or so if the ferry can make a beeline in open water, but Milwaukee would be about 85 miles by water (give or take), and that's a long ride for a daily commuter, especially in inclement weather.

I thought Seattle might be a better model for what you're proposing, as it is the country's biggest ferry system with about 83,000 daily trips, but their longest routes also appear to be within the 25-30 mile range.
Yeah, the distance wouldn't be as feasible for commuter travel, but I would think ferries would still provide an attractive travel alternative for other trips or tourism, particularly between Chicago and Milwaukee. I'm surprised there isn't anything yet that connects the two by water.
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  #1214  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2020, 8:26 PM
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Water transport is greatly undervalued in the US, and as energy prices rise, may see a resurgence. But where the infrastructure can handle current demand, like between Milwaukee and Chicago, it doesn't make as much sense.

In places like Seattle and San Francisco, ferry routes are often the only direct connection between two places. It's much cheaper to build a terminal and run boats to other terminals than it is to build a new bridge or tunnel from point A to point B.
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  #1215  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 9:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Pleasure cruise ships, yes... but I'm sure you realize the massive lengths of Great Lakes freighters. I believe the shortest one of the fleet is nearly 700'... with multiple 1,000+ footers. Just have to mention since I don't think most people realize the absolutely monstrous ships that navigate the Lakes (and since my grandfather built two of the biggest, the Cort and the Tregurtha, both 1,000 footers).
Oh yes, I'm quite familiar with the massive lake freighters that ship taconite, coal, stone and other bulk goods all around the lakes.

I was specifically talking about passenger ships, and I don't think the great lakes have ever seen anything as large as a 30,000 ton cruise ship before, in the passenger ship category.

The massive ore boats like the Stewart J Cort and the other 1,0000 footers are roughly 3x that size.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 19, 2020 at 9:17 PM.
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  #1216  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2020, 9:02 PM
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Yeah, the distance wouldn't be as feasible for commuter travel, but I would think ferries would still provide an attractive travel alternative for other trips or tourism, particularly between Chicago and Milwaukee. I'm surprised there isn't anything yet that connects the two by water.
Between Amtrak, Greyhound, and Megabus, I'm not sure there would be much of a market left for a Chicago - Milwaukee ferry that would likely be more expensive and take longer.

Ferries really only work when there isn't a viable land connection.
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  #1217  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 1:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
^ a lot of people do the cruise from nyc up the new england east coast and then down the st. lawrence to quebec and back. its very popular.


Halifax, Nova Scotia gets its fair of cruise ships as well.



https://twitter.com/johnsha09762538/...567296/photo/1



https://twitter.com/AeroVisionUAV/st...19583670403072
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  #1218  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2020, 6:06 AM
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^ now those are some serious, real-deal cruise ships.

We'll never see any cruise ship that size on the great lakes.

It would never fit through the st. Lawrence/welland canal locks.
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  #1219  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 12:31 AM
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A fast ferry might make sense between Navy Pier and St. Joseph Michigan. Looks to be about a 60 mile distance, which could be done by a fast ferry in an hour or so (probably a bit longer on the approaches). The rail/road distance is a bit over 90 miles, so it wouldn't make sense if there were actual fast trains in between, but that won't happen for a while given congestion in Indiana.

I could imagine that having bidirectional tourist demand and maybe even some commuter demand for people working in Streeterville (e.g. NW hospital).
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  #1220  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2020, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
A fast ferry might make sense between Navy Pier and St. Joseph Michigan. Looks to be about a 60 mile distance, which could be done by a fast ferry in an hour or so (probably a bit longer on the approaches).
Bay Area ferries average about half that speed--12 miles and half an hour from SF Ferry Building to Larkspur Landing; 25 miles and one hour from SF Ferry Building to Vallejo.

Washington State Ferries are very close to Bay Area boat speeds, with the Seattle-Bremerton run at 16 miles in 40 minutes, and Seattle-Bainbridge at about 9 miles in 40 minutes. The ferry between Port Angeles and Victoria, BC is about 22 miles in an hour.

One mile each minute is far too optimistic a timetable for a 60-mile ferry trip across Lake Michigan. If it were to ply the water at the same speeds as existing ferry routes, it would take closer to two hours.
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