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  #281  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 12:58 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by aderwent View Post
Baseball already has seven teams West of the Rockies, where ~21% of the U.S. lives. 7/30 is 23%. The market is already saturated. The SE could use two more teams to fill out the league. Nashville and Raleigh, perhaps.
How is the market saturated? Most of those teams are in five adjacent counties in two parts of California. It'd be a long shot but there's room for a team in Las Vegas, Salt Lake, Vancouver or Portland.
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  #282  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:06 PM
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
The problem with baseball is that it's 81 days a summer. Lots of places could support a football team because you have to make the trip 8 times all year. If the team/sport is popular enough, you can do that. Especially if you were only filling a baseball stadium (obviously, the NFL knows that which is why they have venues 3 times as large).

I have no doubt that if, in some hypothetical world, a baseball team played in Salt Lake City like 20-30 times a year, they could pack a stadium. 81 times? Maybe, but it's certainly less likely.
Current MLB teams don't pack their stadiums regularly, look at the Marlins. So why is that an issue? Baseball is all about TV. An SLC team would control all of Utah, some of Idaho and maybe have inroads to Las Vegas (because of the Mormons that live there).

I do agree baseball plays way too many games, it should be a weekend and holiday sport only and play around 80 games. Who has the attention span to pay attention to 162-180 games a year? I'm sure the players don't like playing pretty much EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. either.
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  #283  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePhun1 View Post
Current MLB teams don't pack their stadiums regularly, look at the Marlins. So why is that an issue?
Isn't the entire thread about teams relocating specifically because of that reason?

We just had an article posted like 16 hours talking about how bad it is, specifically about the Marlins.
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  #284  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:18 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
A lot of those Southeast cities are bad professional sports towns, though. The urban Southeast is heavily transient, meaning sports allegiances don't correlate with place of residence, and college football is so dominant.

And I think baseball would have particular issues, given that football is bigger locally, Southeast summers are hot, humid and very wet, and baseball tends to be rooted in intergenerational traditions. It doesn't really fit modern sprawl living.
While true, there are very few bad baseball towns in MLB to their core. Two of them are in Florida, otherwise, everyone else has an engaged fanbase or one that can be quickly woken up to become intense, except maybe the newer ones like Arizona, Washington and Colorado (I speculate, I don't know for sure).
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  #285  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:22 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
Isn't the entire thread about teams relocating specifically because of that reason?

We just had an article posted like 16 hours talking about how bad it is, specifically about the Marlins.
Any new market will bring in the fans quickly for the novelty. Nobody sells out every game forever, well maybe the Green Bay Packers.
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  #286  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
A lot of those Southeast cities are bad professional sports towns, though. The urban Southeast is heavily transient, meaning sports allegiances don't correlate with place of residence, and college football is so dominant.

And I think baseball would have particular issues, given that football is bigger locally, Southeast summers are hot, humid and very wet, and baseball tends to be rooted in intergenerational traditions. It doesn't really fit modern sprawl living.
I agree that the south is more transient and full of transplants with allegiances elsewhere (I'm a Yankees, NY Rangers and Bills fan here in Houston though I cheered on the Astros) but it has become more stable and with a strong sense of identity. Texas teams have a very strong following. The teams in other southern states that struggle do so because these teams are either expansions teams, suck or both.

Disagree with the bold. Houston and Dallas sprawl terribly and do well with their baseball teams.
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  #287  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by MidTenn1 View Post

My crude map.
that is a slightly out of date map.

the milwaukee brewers haven't been in the AL for TWO DECADES now.

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  #288  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 1:40 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Yeah, the Astros have been around for over 50 years, that's long enough to establish a hardcore fan base and for old men to claim they grew up watching them. The same is true of the Rangers to a lesser extent and the Braves dominate the entire Southeast.
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  #289  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
A lot of those Southeast cities are bad professional sports towns, though. The urban Southeast is heavily transient, meaning sports allegiances don't correlate with place of residence, and college football is so dominant.

And I think baseball would have particular issues, given that football is bigger locally, Southeast summers are hot, humid and very wet, and baseball tends to be rooted in intergenerational traditions. It doesn't really fit modern sprawl living.
Winning changes everything.

The 15 years of divisional domination in the 1990s early 2000s by the Atlanta Braves have/had a huge following in most of the entire southeast.

E) Hot and humid Texas sprawlers have supported their teams --the Spurs, Cowboys, Mavericks, Rockets, Astros, Rangers. Then on a college level there is SEC football and ACC basketball which draw professional level support/fan base in the Southeast.

E2) The Dallas Mavericks currently hold the longest consecutive NBA sell out streak at over 450 home games.

Last edited by Sun Belt; Apr 13, 2018 at 3:00 PM.
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  #290  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePhun1 View Post
Any new market will bring in the fans quickly for the novelty. Nobody sells out every game forever, well maybe the Green Bay Packers.
We're not talking about constant sellouts, we're talking about not supporting the team. Whether you think that's unimportant or not, it IS what the entire thread is about. So, yes, I think whether or not a market could support a team for 81/41/8 games is important- it's basically the topic of the thread.

We can't have 13 pages of "Hey, do you think these teams aren't gonna move because they don't get the support?", then on page 14 say "What about [insert city here]?", and then say "So what?" when someone points out they might not have the support.
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  #291  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:22 PM
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if north carolina keeps growing like the weed that it is, MLB is gonna wanna get in on that action at some point.

i would bet money on there being an MLB team somewhere in the carolinas by the middle of this century.

the only stumbling block could be NC's widely distributed population. baseball, because of its very game-intensive schedule, really works best in places of high population concentration, but charlotte will probably get there over the next several decades.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
(obviously, the NFL knows that which is why they have venues 3 times as large).
actually, NFL stadiums are only 63% larger on average.

median NFL stadium capacity - 68,500

median MLB stadium capacity - 42,000


the NFL is a TV industry FAR more than it is a stadium industry. MLB is too, but not to the same degree.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Apr 13, 2018 at 3:02 PM.
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  #292  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
if north carolina keeps growing like the weed that it is, MLB is gonna wanna get in on that action at some point.

i would bet money on there being an MLB team somewhere in the carolinas by the middle of this century.

the only stumbling block could be NC's widely distributed population. baseball, because of its very game-intensive schedule, really works best in places of high population concentration, but charlotte will probably get there over the next several decades.
Charlotte would make the most sense, but like you said, the N.C. arch is massive and will continue to grow all the way to the northeast side of Raleigh.
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  #293  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:50 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
We're not talking about constant sellouts, we're talking about not supporting the team. Whether you think that's unimportant or not, it IS what the entire thread is about. So, yes, I think whether or not a market could support a team for 81/41/8 games is important- it's basically the topic of the thread.

We can't have 13 pages of "Hey, do you think these teams aren't gonna move because they don't get the support?", then on page 14 say "What about [insert city here]?", and then say "So what?" when someone points out they might not have the support.
Then what's your definition of support? If it's selling out every game for years and years, that's not realistic, not even for the typical NFL franchise.
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  #294  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePhun1 View Post
Then what's your definition of support? If it's selling out every game for years and years, that's not realistic, not even for the typical NFL franchise.
Again, you can support a team without "selling out every game for years and years". 6,000 fans a game, though, is poor support. There's a middle ground, you know that, right?

Again, here's how the thread has went:

MANY PAGES: Here's a bunch of teams that could move because of poor support.

MANY PAGES: Debate about if their support is poor or not.

VERY RECENTLY: What about Salt Lake City?

ME: I'm not sure Salt Lake City can support a baseball team.

YOU: Why does support matter?

For the third or fourth time, support is literally the topic of the thread, that's why it matters in this conversation.
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  #295  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 2:59 PM
aderwent aderwent is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
A lot of those Southeast cities are bad professional sports towns, though. The urban Southeast is heavily transient, meaning sports allegiances don't correlate with place of residence, and college football is so dominant.

And I think baseball would have particular issues, given that football is bigger locally, Southeast summers are hot, humid and very wet, and baseball tends to be rooted in intergenerational traditions. It doesn't really fit modern sprawl living.
Well Atlanta of all places just built a new baseball stadium that is completely outdoors. I think Raleigh and Nashville would be just fine weather wise.

The South has been much more transient than the North, but so is the West. And places like Charlotte and Raleigh are and have been growing so quickly for so long they have plenty large enough "local" bases these days. Nashville is more of a stretch, but if Las Vegas can be successful, so can Nashville.
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  #296  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Winning changes everything.

The 15 years of divisional domination in the 1990s early 2000s by the Atlanta Braves have/had a huge following in most of the entire southeast.

E) Hot and humid Texas sprawlers have supported their teams --the Spurs, Cowboys, Mavericks, Rockets, Astros, Rangers. Then on a college level there is SEC football and ACC basketball which draw professional level support/fan base in the Southeast.
I know South Florida sports fans take a beating on here but the Heat have sold out every game for ever as well (who knew if you had a decently run team that actually tried to win, people would support it). The Tampa Bay Lightning seem to do well too.
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  #297  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 3:05 PM
ThePhun1 ThePhun1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cannedairspray View Post
Again, you can support a team without "selling out every game for years and years". 6,000 fans a game, though, is poor support. There's a middle ground, you know that, right?

Again, here's how the thread has went:

MANY PAGES: Here's a bunch of teams that could move because of poor support.

MANY PAGES: Debate about if their support is poor or not.

VERY RECENTLY: What about Salt Lake City?

ME: I'm not sure Salt Lake City can support a baseball team.

YOU: Why does support matter?

For the third or fourth time, support is literally the topic of the thread, that's why it matters in this conversation.
I'm not saying why does support matter, I'm saying why do teams need to sell out their stadium 81 days? That's a novel idea but not realistic, not even for the Yankees.

As long as they can consistently bring in 25-30k fans a game, that's about as much as you can ask for.
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  #298  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ThePhun1 View Post
As long as they can consistently bring in 25-30k fans a game, that's about as much as you can ask for.
no, you can ask for more.

last season there were 14 MLB teams that averaged more than 30K in home attendance:

1. LA Dodgers - 46,492
2. St. Louis - 42,567
3. San Francisco - 40,785
4. NY Yankees - 39,835
5. Toronto - 39,554
6. Chicago Cubs - 39,500
7. LA Angels - 37,278
8. Colorado - 36,464
9. Boston - 36,020
10. Milwaukee - 31,589
11. Washington - 31,172
12. Texas - 30,960
13. Atlanta - 30,929
14. NY Mets - 30,757

source: http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017
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  #299  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 3:19 PM
cannedairspray cannedairspray is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhun1 View Post
I'm not saying why does support matter, I'm saying why do teams need to sell out their stadium 81 days?



Who ever said ANYTHING about selling out every game? Why do you keep bringing that up?

Quote:
As long as they can consistently bring in 25-30k fans a game, that's about as much as you can ask for.
Sure, but that's easier said than done.

Here's the MLB attendance averages for last year (not bothering with this year, too short): http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance/_/year/2017

Here's the top 100 TV markets: http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

That doesn't bode well. It could happen. But it probably wouldn't.
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  #300  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2018, 3:19 PM
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National League average attendance 1998 - present:

1998: 2,401,674
1999: 2,380,436
2000: 2,480,194
2001: 2,481,346
2002: 2,309,294
2003: 2,273,813
2004: 2,512,690
2005: 2,583,685
2006: 2,598,741
2007: 2,756,384
2008: 2,755,082
2009: 2,571,627
2010: 2,563,111
2011: 2,547,018
2012: 2,592,218
2013: 2,629,060
2014: 2,615,565
2015: 2,593,535
2016: 2,540,903
2017: 2,553,787


American League average attendance 1998 - present

1998: 2,298,169
1999: 2,286,874
2000: 2,262,557
2001: 2,346,071
2002: 2,207,891
2003: 2,191,745
2004: 2,340,422
2005: 2,360,452
2006: 2,458,741
2007: 2,527,968
2008: 2,464,986
2009: 2,305,178
2010: 2,289,427
2011: 2,333,812
2012: 2,384,555
2013: 2,306,065
2014: 2,299,409
2015: 2,323,798
2016: 2,336,365
2017: 2,290,907

Attendance peaked in 2007 and have not recovered in either league.
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