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  #1721  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 8:23 AM
GoTrans GoTrans is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The existing and former rail corridors only make up part of the route. They have not identified how they are getting from Union (if they are using Union) to Agincourt, how they're getting from Havelock to Smith Falls (or if they are planning to convert the snowmobile trail into a class 6 railway, how they're going to do that, and how they are going to get from Glen Tay to Smith Falls), how they are going to get from Coteau to Central Station (assuming they are using central station) and how they are getting from Central Station to the start of the QGR North of the city. Nor have they identified how they are crossing Peterborough or the various towns along the route that have level crossings.

An environmental assessment needs some level of detail before they know what they are assessing.
We all now the devil is in the details u you are trying to make issues where they may not exist. Most of the ROW can easily be returned to rail use with powers the federal government has. The route of the line is planned, it is detailed cost estimates that are not.Anything can be done, but it all boils down to what is an acceptable cost. They may already have fairly detailed cost estimates that have not been made public. The whole basis of this project is recycling previous and existing ROW.
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  #1722  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GoTrans View Post
We all now the devil is in the details u you are trying to make issues where they may not exist. Most of the ROW can easily be returned to rail use with powers the federal government has. The route of the line is planned, it is detailed cost estimates that are not.Anything can be done, but it all boils down to what is an acceptable cost. They may already have fairly detailed cost estimates that have not been made public. The whole basis of this project is recycling previous and existing ROW.
The devil in the details is the largest expense of this project. Upgrading track in rural areas is relatively cheap. Cutting new rail lines in the wilderness or building new/upgraded rail infrastructure in dense urban areas is not.

If you have a link to the route plan that would be great (an actual line on an actual map). I have not seen a route plan in 5 years they have been talking about this project.

I fully agree that anything can be done (from an engineering perspective) and that cost is the obstacle in any transportation project. However, the reason they have identified for pursuing this option is its alleged low cost compared to other options.
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  #1723  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
If you have a link to the route plan that would be great (an actual line on an actual map). I have not seen a route plan in 5 years they have been talking about this project.
Well, I have, and in various iterations.

If you believe you ought to see detailed maps of the exact preliminary routing before it has been refined in an EA process, then I suggest that you should seek employment with one of the project’s promoters, or with one of the engineering firms they’ve contracted or with one of the major stakeholders concerned...
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  #1724  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
Well, I have, and in various iterations.

If you believe you ought to see detailed maps of the exact preliminary routing before it has been refined in an EA process, then I suggest that you should seek employment with one of the project’s promoters, or with one of the engineering firms they’ve contracted or with one of the major stakeholders concerned...
You’re back!

Surprisingly you’ve only had 56 posts here. (I have expected thousands.) At least it makes it easier to find the comments that contain the route.
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  #1725  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 1:48 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
Well, I have, and in various iterations.

If you believe you ought to see detailed maps of the exact preliminary routing before it has been refined in an EA process, then I suggest that you should seek employment with one of the project’s promoters, or with one of the engineering firms they’ve contracted or with one of the major stakeholders concerned...
Getting a job with an engineering company is not a usual requirement to get a map of a proposed infrastructure project (particularly when the proponent is a government-owned company). With a simple online search I can find detailed maps of REM, Metrolinx projects, TTC projects, future Ottawa LRT lines, international rail projects such as California HSR, HS2 in the UK, etc. Yet five years after proposing this project (with very specific cost and time estimates) there is not a map to be found, just schematic type diagrams.
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  #1726  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Getting a job with an engineering company is not a usual requirement to get a map of a proposed infrastructure project (particularly when the proponent is a government-owned company). With a simple online search I can find detailed maps of REM, Metrolinx projects, TTC projects, future Ottawa LRT lines, international rail projects such as California HSR, HS2 in the UK, etc. Yet five years after proposing this project (with very specific cost and time estimates) there is not a map to be found, just schematic type diagrams.
Well given how previous federal governments lack of action towards Via Rail, I dont blame them for making it hard to get that info until they can be sure they would get funding for HFR.
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  #1727  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 2:42 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The existing and former rail corridors only make up part of the route. They have not identified how they are getting from Union (if they are using Union) to Agincourt, how they're getting from Havelock to Smith Falls (or if they are planning to convert the snowmobile trail into a class 6 railway, how they're going to do that, and how they are going to get from Glen Tay to Smith Falls), how they are going to get from Coteau to Central Station (assuming they are using central station) and how they are getting from Central Station to the start of the QGR North of the city. Nor have they identified how they are crossing Peterborough or the various towns along the route that have level crossings.

An environmental assessment needs some level of detail before they know what they are assessing.
It is very normal for the exact routing to not be defined prior to the Environmental Assessment (EA). It is true that constraints need to be made but there are only so many routes available for getting from Toronto to Agincourt, from Havelock to Smith Falls, and from Coteau to Montreal. Those kinds of decisions are best left to an EA. To make a final decision on the exact route prior to the EA would be putting the cart before the horse.

Don't believe me? Just look at the Kanata-LRT EA Study. It "identified and examined 13 LRT corridor options."
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  #1728  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 2:46 PM
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Well given how previous federal governments lack of action towards Via Rail, I dont blame them for making it hard to get that info until they can be sure they would get funding for HFR.
Also, given the large amount of land that will need to be acquired, they don't want NIMBYs and real estate speculators putting undue influence on the decision of the best route. Once the final route is decided, then they can announce it to the general public.
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  #1729  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
You’re back!

Surprisingly you’ve only had 56 posts here. (I have expected thousands.) At least it makes it easier to find the comments that contain the route.
+1. I'm always happy to see posts by Urban_Sky. While he may not be able to give us all the details we may want, he provides a different perspective than any of us have.
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  #1730  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 2:58 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Getting a job with an engineering company is not a usual requirement to get a map of a proposed infrastructure project (particularly when the proponent is a government-owned company). With a simple online search I can find detailed maps of REM, Metrolinx projects, TTC projects, future Ottawa LRT lines, international rail projects such as California HSR, HS2 in the UK, etc. Yet five years after proposing this project (with very specific cost and time estimates) there is not a map to be found, just schematic type diagrams.
Most of the projects that you describe are past the EA stage. You want the exact route before the EA is completed???
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  #1731  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 3:47 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Yeah right... Stopping at Quebec City’s tiny airport, but not Toronto’s...
There's absolutely no point extending to Pearson until the whole Pearson Transit Hub plan is firmed up. They'll have to rationalize corridor capacity between GO, UPE, VIA, freight, etc. Planning till the airport till all of that is thought out would be foolish.

What's relevant for Ottawa though is the stop at Dorval's and the eventual plan to extend the REM there. 2 hrs from downtown Ottawa to Dorval including the O-Train and REM rides, if this happens. If you live near the Confederation Line, this would the same amount of transfers as taking the Trillium Line and Airport Connector to YOW. Albeit a longer ride. I can see this being quite a boon for YUL. And a bit of a hit for YOW.
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  #1732  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 3:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
The feds recently announced they want VIA to consider expanding HFR to the entire corridor, so we'll see what the "alternate route' looks like. :/
Where did you see that? It might be the eventual goal. But their current plans are barely firm. And there have been articles showing that the Montreal-Quebec City route is dragging down numbers for the whole corridor. I wouldn't be surprised if that portion gets "deferred".
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  #1733  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 3:59 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Getting a job with an engineering company is not a usual requirement to get a map of a proposed infrastructure project (particularly when the proponent is a government-owned company). With a simple online search I can find detailed maps of REM, Metrolinx projects, TTC projects, future Ottawa LRT lines, international rail projects such as California HSR, HS2 in the UK, etc. Yet five years after proposing this project (with very specific cost and time estimates) there is not a map to be found, just schematic type diagrams.
Given that they are only undertaking a detailed route survey now and haven't started the EA, any map provided is tentative at best. And given the commercial sensitivities with potential private sector partners or property acquisitions, they'd have to make, putting very rough lines on a map would be downright irresponsible. This isn't anywhere in the same ballpark as building as an LRT or upgrading an existing GO line. If they don't provide details after their $70 million study (with the EA) is complete, I'd agree with you. Wait too early right now.

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Originally Posted by OtrainUser View Post
Well given how previous federal governments lack of action towards Via Rail, I dont blame them for making it hard to get that info until they can be sure they would get funding for HFR.
Could just be an antsy frequent flyer. Who knows. People on the YOW thread take all sorts of umbrage when I suggest that if HFR pans out, it might actually reduce demand for aviation at YOW. Dunno about others, but if HFR reduces Tremblay-Dorval to an hour (as is currently suggested), I would take a lot more flights from YUL. It'd be more convenient to me, leaving home from Cyrville, than YOW.
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  #1734  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post

Could just be an antsy frequent flyer. Who knows. People on the YOW thread take all sorts of umbrage when I suggest that if HFR pans out, it might actually reduce demand for aviation at YOW. Dunno about others, but if HFR reduces Tremblay-Dorval to an hour (as is currently suggested), I would take a lot more flights from YUL. It'd be more convenient to me, leaving home from Cyrville, than YOW.
I predict that once HFR is built, Air Canada will enter into a code-sharing agreement with VIA, and cancel most of their short-haul flights in YOW. That would open up more space for long haul flights at YOW.
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  #1735  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 5:04 PM
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I predict that once HFR is built, Air Canada will enter into a code-sharing agreement with VIA, and cancel most of their short-haul flights in YOW. That would open up more space for long haul flights at YOW.
I'm not convinced. It is short haul flights that benefit the most by being direct nonstop. Adding a 2 hour transfer to a 2-3 hour flight is a lot worse than adding it to a 6+ hour flight.

Besides, capacity isn't an issue at YOW.
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  #1736  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 5:48 PM
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Although I had one horrible experience with a flight transfer at Pearson, it is still generally more convenient to transfer to a short haul flight to YOW than to take VIA.
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  #1737  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 6:32 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Although I had one horrible experience with a flight transfer at Pearson, it is still generally more convenient to transfer to a short haul flight to YOW than to take VIA.
You can't really compare your experience with VIA today to what it will be like post HFR. Currently the frequency is too low and the reliability too poor to make VIA a great option. HFR will fix that with hourly trains and an on time performance better than both AC and WS.

I expect Air France/KLM is low hanging fruit for a code share with VIA since they already have a bus from the VIA station and are accustomed to rail code shares in Europe. I am sure many of the other international carriers currently operating out of YUL will follow suit (a list can be found here).
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  #1738  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 9:43 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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You can't really compare your experience with VIA today to what it will be like post HFR. Currently the frequency is too low and the reliability too poor to make VIA a great option. HFR will fix that with hourly trains and an on time performance better than both AC and WS.
Exactly. People keep making comparisons to current services. It's kinda sad that most Canadians can't even imagine a level of service that is considered basic in most intercity corridors elsewhere. And so they don't get what a change this would be.

Hourly departures and 60-75 min travel time to Dorval will have a material impact on travel options for Ottawa residents. Compare that to half a dozen trains per day today and a 1 hr 40 min travel time. It'll be night and day.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I expect Air France/KLM is low hanging fruit for a code share with VIA since they already have a bus from the VIA station and are accustomed to rail code shares in Europe. I am sure many of the other international carriers currently operating out of YUL will follow suit (a list can be found here).
Bingo. I don't think it's so much AC (and WS to a much lesser extent) as all the carriers not aligned with them at Dorval, or who can't access Ottawa directly, who will happily bundle in a train ticket from Ottawa to sell a seat on their flights. And even if you don't want to take the train to Dorval, you should cheer this on. It'll help keep AC and WS honest in Ottawa. The price differential between any destination served by YUL and YOW should never exceed $100 after HFR.
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  #1739  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
You can't really compare your experience with VIA today to what it will be like post HFR. Currently the frequency is too low and the reliability too poor to make VIA a great option. HFR will fix that with hourly trains and an on time performance better than both AC and WS.

I expect Air France/KLM is low hanging fruit for a code share with VIA since they already have a bus from the VIA station and are accustomed to rail code shares in Europe. I am sure many of the other international carriers currently operating out of YUL will follow suit (a list can be found here).
Even at 3hr 15m from Toronto Union + 1 hour to get from Pearson including walking etc, it is still too slow.
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  #1740  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2019, 3:46 AM
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Even at 3hr 15m from Toronto Union + 1 hour to get from Pearson including walking etc, it is still too slow.
I was talking about YUL, not YYZ. For those who absolutely have to fly out of YYZ, I agree that catching at flight out of YOW would make more sense. For most destinations, YUL would also work well and there (post HFR of course) would often be a better option. The best option would be to catch a direct nonstop flight out of YOW.
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