Winnipeg Ice

[Biff]

The Rink Academy charges about $25k a year.

[bomberjet]

Wooo boy. Pretty sweet program. Not cheap.

[rrskylar]

So they moved the WHL team out of Cranbrook where they were losing a ton of money and only averaging 2200 a game but in Winnipeg they are getting about 1200 per game, how does that stay afloat?

From HFBoards

#1
"I have heard from a reliable source that the Ice move to Winnipeg has been a disaster. With little media coverage, a dingy third rate arena, and pathetic attendance, the Ice are expected to take a bloodbath this year. One cannot be suprised, as the Winnipeg market is much too small to have an NHL, AHL, and Junior Hockey teams reside here. The market is saturated, and the only way the Ice will survive is for the AHL Moose to relocate, which is not likely to happen anytime soon.

The name "Ice" is fitting, as ticket and merchandise sales have been "Ice cold."

#2
It’s been a mystery to me what made them think this would be a good market for junior hockey. There was 4 MJHL teams in Winnipeg now there is 1 and they basically play in front of friends and family. The Bisons draw even less which is too bad because U Sports is excellent hockey. The Moose attendance is trending down. Bottom line it’s a Jets market.

It does make you wonder how they can pay their bills. They can’t sell out a 1600 seat building, have the most expensive travel costs of any team as they are the farthest east. I’ve also read they are still paying a lease in Cranbrook.

Has construction even started on their facility yet? Agree that the Moose won’t be leaving anytime soon. It can’t think of a market that would want an AHL team.

[esquire]

^ The Ice experience illustrates TNSE's genius of parking the Moose here. Having the Moose in Winnipeg makes it damn near impossible for anyone else to cut into the hockey market. If the Moose didn't exist and the Ice came in, they would have easily carved off a good chunk of the cost-conscious hockey fanbase looking for an alternative to the Jets. As it stands, TNSE barely lifts a finger to market the Moose and they're drawing over 5,000 fans a game. Meanwhile, unless they're playing the Wheat Kings, the Ice struggle to get a thousand.

As to drew's point earlier, is SW Winnipeg really the hockey hotbed in town? I drove past some ODRs in the Ft. Richmond area over the holidays and they were damn near empty, a stark contrast from the ones in St. Vital that were jammed. I suspect that the very high numbers of immigrants living in that general area (Ft. Richmond, Waverley West) has something to do with that.

[plrh]

Maybe they should move them to Selkirk where they can live off of East/West St. Paul money. The existing arena holds 2750.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by plrh

Maybe they should move them to Selkirk where they can live off of East/West St. Paul money. The existing arena holds 2750.

The Steelers and Fishermen are pretty longstanding hockey institutions in Selkirk... I'm not sure how much the people there would have appreciated carpetbaggers coming in for a couple years and undermining their home teams.

Besides, now that 50 Below has shelled out coin to upgrade Wayne Fleming and they have a new rink supposedly on the way, I doubt they could pay for even more upgrades in another arena.

[drew]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ The Ice experience illustrates TNSE's genius of parking the Moose here. Having the Moose in Winnipeg makes it damn near impossible for anyone else to cut into the hockey market. If the Moose didn't exist and the Ice came in, they would have easily carved off a good chunk of the cost-conscious hockey fanbase looking for an alternative to the Jets. As it stands, TNSE barely lifts a finger to market the Moose and they're drawing over 5,000 fans a game. Meanwhile, unless they're playing the Wheat Kings, the Ice struggle to get a thousand.

As to drew's point earlier, is SW Winnipeg really the hockey hotbed in town? I drove past some ODRs in the Ft. Richmond area over the holidays and they were damn near empty, a stark contrast from the ones in St. Vital that were jammed. I suspect that the very high numbers of immigrants living in that general area (Ft. Richmond, Waverley West) has something to do with that.

OK - maybe the hotbed would be south Winnipeg - generally (lots of engineer speak here haha).

But basically, hockey is a middle class, suburban type endeavor these days (again, generally). South Winnipeg (in general), and surrounding bedroom communities are where the kids playing hockey are coming from (trust me as a Wolseley parent with two kids in sports, the kids aren't coming from the inner City areas).

None of these families will consider the proposed Ice arena location as "out-of-the way". I can almost guarantee you, for most of them it will be easier to get to, and if not preferable (to their suburban sensibilities) to going downtown to see the Moose.

IMO, if the ICE can get their act in gear - its the Moose that are in trouble in terms of butts in the seats. Not the Ice.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by drew

OK - maybe the hotbed would be south Winnipeg - generally (lots of engineer speak here haha).

But basically, hockey is a middle class, suburban type endeavor these days (again, generally). South Winnipeg (in general), and surrounding bedroom communities are where the kids playing hockey are coming from (trust me as a Wolseley parent with two kids in sports, the kids aren't coming from the inner City areas).

None of these families will consider the proposed Ice arena location as "out-of-the way". I can almost guarantee you, for most of them it will be easier to get to, and if not preferable (to their suburban sensibilities) to going downtown to see the Moose.

IMO, if the ICE can get their act in gear - its the Moose that are in trouble in terms of butts in the seats. Not the Ice.

Even with their own arena (who is going to pay for it) the Ice will still be lucky to draw 2K to games, the Moose have the great advantage of playing rent free in their own building filling dates at Bell MTS where the arena would ordinarily be empty, pretty much win win for TNSE! Other countries seem to have figured out how to make hockey accessible and even their youth programs are superior to Canada's, just look at the past couple drafts and the number of US born players!

TNSE also offers a superior product with name recognition players!

In terms of youth hockey, it's all but priced out for the lower and even the middle class, maybe why the number of Canadians now playing in the NHL drops every year and from close to 70% a decade ago to near 50% (actually 43% this season down from 50% just three years ago) today and it wouldn't surprise me if that number is even 30% a decade from now.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Even with their own arena (who is going to pay for it) the Ice will still be lucky to draw 2K to games, the Moose have the great advantage of playing rent free in their own building filling dates at Bell MTS where the arena would ordinarily be empty, pretty much win win for TNSE!

TNSE also offers a superior product with name recognition players!

I love the Moose but at the same time, some of the Ice could go on to become bonafide NHL stars. Matt Savoie is the most hyped up guy, but you could add Pedersen, McClennon, Krebs and Lambos to that list of potential legit NHLers. Not all of them, but some of them.

As I said before, if the Ice end up making a real playoff push while the Jets and Moose fail to qualify or get bounced in the first round (fingers crossed that they all have deep playoff runs, but who knows), that could be The Big Break that the Ice has been waiting for.

[CoryB]

With four teams, 20 players each the RHA program brings in approximately $2,000,000 a year. Yeah it has expenses on that but you know there is some profit in there. Add in revenue streams from other programs.

The owners also have 24/7 In Touch and can use that as a revenue source to move money to offset losses from the hockey team in trade of tax write offs.

The people behind the Ice are smart business folks and went into this well informed. It isn't a secret the Warriors couldn't make a go of it in Winnipeg with much less direct competition. I am surprised people thought differently.

I do not have any better knowledge of the long term plans for the Ice than anyone here but something is definitely not being shared publicly yet when then are planning to build a 5,000 seat arena. That is Manitoba Moose level numbers and just seems ill thought out on paper without knowing the full details.

It is also not a secret that other pre-professional teams don't draw in Winnipeg, just look at the Bisons football program that should have far higher attendance given the quality of the team, the facility they play in, the ticket price point and the local competition.

Then again I looked at the Valour price points and swear someone is doing some pretty crazy mind altering drugs when coming up with these plans so who knows for sure.

All that said, I think the Ice being here wasn't done as a short term play but has a lot more to be told yet.

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Even with their own arena (who is going to pay for it) the Ice will still be lucky to draw 2K to games, the Moose have the great advantage of playing rent free in their own building filling dates at Bell MTS where the arena would ordinarily be empty, pretty much win win for TNSE! Other countries seem to have figured out how to make hockey accessible and even their youth programs are superior to Canada's, just look at the past couple drafts and the number of US born players!

The owners would be paying for it, as far as I know? Unless you know different (the property is outside of City limits, so the CoW is off the hook).

To your point - the Moose are fine, provided TNSE is OK with them basically filling a void in the events calendar for BellMTS Place. Because even now, that's more or less the trend they are on.

I still contend the market is there for the taking if the Ice play their cards right.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

I love the Moose but at the same time, some of the Ice could go on to become bonafide NHL stars.

As I have said a couple times, the Ice just needs a major break out from their program to really put gas on that fire. Even better if they get a player that progresses through their RHA program to the ICE and then a high round NHL draft spot. They luck out and have that happen and every hockey parent in the province is going to be trying to get their 3 year old a spot in the RHA program and doing just about anything else (ie attending Ice games) to try and get their kid "an edge".

[bomberjet]

It was said there is zero public money involved with the ice and their arena proposal. And it's not in the City, so don't worry skylar. haha

[esquire]

I am really curious to see what their arena is going to look like. It will have to be done on a tight budget for the reasons that have been stated, but at the same time it can't be too bare bones because otherwise it'll be a tough sell to fans who could go to BMTSP instead.

[bomberjet]

The OP has some renderings in the video link. Looks pretty swanky. Wasn't it costing $70 mil?

[CoryB]

^^ My guess is a nice open bowl style similar to IGF but with actual room to move and mostly mobile carts/service stations to start. Yes mobile service stations aren't free but they likely cost less than permanent build outs and are much easier to sell. They could also be replaced by more permanent structures should things work out. Getting close to the ten year point for IGF and about 50% of the concessions are still using mobile stations. Even the Bell MTS Palace is still using mobile stations, mostly for canned beer/bottled soft drinks.

Heck you can do mobile stations on the super cheap with basically kitchen cabinets on wheels and a couple of plastic coolers.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The OP has some renderings in the video link. Looks pretty swanky. Wasn't it costing $70 mil?

Thanks, forgot about that... That concept seems pretty optimistic.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Even with their own arena (who is going to pay for it) the Ice will still be lucky to draw 2K to games, the Moose have the great advantage of playing rent free in their own building filling dates at Bell MTS where the arena would ordinarily be empty, pretty much win win for TNSE! Other countries seem to have figured out how to make hockey accessible and even their youth programs are superior to Canada's, just look at the past couple drafts and the number of US born players!

TNSE also offers a superior product with name recognition players!

In terms of youth hockey, it's all but priced out for the lower and even the middle class, maybe why the number of Canadians now playing in the NHL drops every year and from close to 70% a decade ago to near 50% (actually 43% this season down from 50% just three years ago) today and it wouldn't surprise me if that number is even 30% a decade from now.

A “reliable source” on a commentary board on the internet. Seems credible.

[bomberjet]

We have some pretty reliable sources on this board. So it's believable in concept. Saying that, it's HF boards which I abandoned long ago for obvious reasons. haha

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

We have some pretty reliable sources on this board. So it's believable in concept. Saying that, it's HF boards which I abandoned long ago for obvious reasons. haha

Well I'm just a newbie at HFBoards abandonment having committed to that about a month ago!