Winnipeg Ice

[buzzg]

I have heard from people connected to the team that they are struggling mightily. People just have no interest in going to games, and some in the organization are concerned that going to a new, bigger, more expensive to operate arena is going to make things worse.

Some feedback they've had from (potential) attendees are that it's too far out to make the journey on a weeknight for a lot of the city – and the new arena will not be any better.

What's worse, Moose, Jets, and others like them (NCAA, Goldeyes) get a huge revenue boost from merchandise. Ice gear has not been moving at all they say. Also "families" tend to spend way less at games on concessions, so Ice really rely on ticket sales (which are bad) and corporate dollars (likely not high either).

Part of me wonders if keeping the existing Ice identity was also a mistake, vs. building a new identity for Winnipeg. Not that Ice is out of place here, but it's on its 3rd city now.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I have heard from people connected to the team that they are struggling mightily. People just have no interest in going to games, and some in the organization are concerned that going to a new, bigger, more expensive to operate arena is going to make things worse.

Some feedback they've had from (potential) attendees are that it's too far out to make the journey on a weeknight for a lot of the city – and the new arena will not be any better.

What's worse, Moose, Jets, and others like them (NCAA, Goldeyes) get a huge revenue boost from merchandise. Ice gear has not been moving at all they say. Also "families" tend to spend way less at games on concessions, so Ice really rely on ticket sales (which are bad) and corporate dollars (likely not high either).

Part of me wonders if keeping the existing Ice identity was also a mistake, vs. building a new identity for Winnipeg. Not that Ice is out of place here, but it's on its 3rd city now.

This is not surprising at all to hear. I get the impression that they thought it would be like the Jets, i.e. they'd just have to open the doors and the joint would be packed. There was very little effort put into marketing the team, as evidenced by the many people I know who are marginal hockey fans (the watch the odd Jets game on TV and maybe attend a Jets game or two in person every season type of fan) who don't even know that the Ice exist or what league they play in. The only place I see/hear games advertised is on CJOB, which is the domain of elderly people who only go to casinos. Try running some ads where people who might go to games will see them.

Like it or not they're also hampered by the Wayne Fleming Arena. Everything about it says 'small time' and you can't really convince people who are not familiar with the Dub that this is a big time product when they play in a venue that looks more appropriate for Junior B hockey.

And I can tell you the problem with merch from what I've seen at the games. It's too damn expensive, full stop. My kid already has a Jets toque that he loves, so why would I drop 40 bucks on an Ice one for him? But price it at 15 bucks and suddenly it becomes more enticing. I don't get why a team like the Ice wouldn't sell their merch cheap just to build awareness and to get their logo into peoples' faces. Even if you sell a hat at 15 bucks you're still probably making a decent profit. You get a kid in every class wearing a hat or a t-shirt and all of a sudden the team has a presence they wouldn't otherwise have. Seems like basic marketing to me.

Also, as I've pointed out before, the scheduling is bad. If one of your natural markets is young kids and their teams along with their families, why wouldn't you start the games before 7:30? My kid loves the Ice but it is hard to take him out to games considering that it conflicts with school nights on weekdays and hockey on weekends. So not surprisingly our next game outings are the Moose this month and the Jets next month... they both play afternoon games.

[drew]

^ I think if nothing else, the new arena will give them a year or two "bump" in attendance out of the shiny new toy phenomena - that may be enough to establish their brand in the City. Certainly more so than playing out of the UofM.

I think the business case for the team can be sound - provided they can capture a chunk of that southwest Winnipeg market. Lots of kids, lots of hockey. Seems like a no brainer.

[esquire]

One more thing on the merch, the way they have the table set up before you enter the arena is a bad place for it. Everyone walks by it to get into the venue. They should have it available inside the arena so people will stroll by it at intermission. I know it's cramped on the concourses, but it looks to me like there should be some room in the southwest corner by the roast beef carving station.

I really want to see the WHL succeed in Winnipeg, so tell 'em to call me for more free advice, buzz

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

One more thing on the merch, the way they have the table set up before you enter the arena is a bad place for it. Everyone walks by it to get into the venue. They should have it available inside the arena so people will stroll by it at intermission. I know it's cramped on the concourses, but it looks to me like there should be some room in the southwest corner by the roast beef carving station.

I really want to see the WHL succeed in Winnipeg, so tell 'em to call me for more free advice, buzz

They have a carvery there too? Just like Jets and Moose... maybe do something unique. Is roast beef that in-demand? Lol.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by buzzg

They have a carvery there too? Just like Jets and Moose... maybe do something unique. Is roast beef that in-demand? Lol.

I wish it was then we'd have more than one Arby's in this God forsaken city.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by cheswick

I wish it was then we'd have more than one Arby's in this God forsaken city.

Gross.

[Flavelle103]

Went to my first Ice game Saturday. Announced as a sellout of 1,600 and it was indeed more or less full. But there were at least three minor hockey teams in the bleachers and I’m guessing they got in free. Everyone at the game got a free ticket to a Wednesday game.
I too want the team to succeed. It’s great hockey and that’s the bottom line. They can make do at the U of M for a couple of seasons but I would agree with others here that some of the prices are too high. Beer is $9, only a slight discount to NHL prices and the food is just as expensive as at Bell MTS. Seems like a mistake to me.
Also .. why did the game have to start at 7:30 on a Saturday? 6 pm please.
Some correctable problems. Hopefully they get fixed.

[Boreal]

$9 beer for a WHL team is outrageous. I really want this to succeed but NHL-ish concession prices is wild. I need to get out to a game to see this all first hand.

[esquire]

The team's saving grace is that they are very good and very exciting with some excellent young players who could well become household names in the not too distant future. (Mind you, I was at the game vs. Brandon when their much ballyhooed 1st overall pick, 15 year old Matt Savoie got annihilated and concussed by a Wheat Kings player... made me question the wisdom of the whole 'exceptional status' thing for 15 year olds, but whatever). If they were stuck in 5th place in the division, they'd be in real trouble.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by buzzg

I have heard from people connected to the team that they are struggling mightily. People just have no interest in going to games, and some in the organization are concerned that going to a new, bigger, more expensive to operate arena is going to make things worse.

Said it from the start. They need to run bus service from where people live, ie the Gateway 10 year old team is going to the Ice game tonight. We have a proper tour bus (ie not a school bus) picking everyone up at their local community club including the players, parents, coaches, etc. The team then has a hype person of the bus doing trivia, talking up the team, etc and giving out merchandise. The team needs to take that promo items as a loss leader to get their brand out there. Simply put there is no price point at which you are eating into the Jets merchandise in the target demo. You might be able to get some jerseys sold though if you are basically giving them away price wise v what the Jets and Moose are charging. For perspective think how many Jets and Bombers jerseys you see around at times. Now think how many Moose jerserys you see. Then you have Goldeyes and Valour and rarely see those and they don't have two other higher level teams playing the same sport here.

Basically they need to put a lot of effort into getting people to see what they are offering and build from there.

Also having a first round NHL pick come from their program after their move to Winnipeg would really help but that is not something you can really plan.

It would else help to get their players and coaches going out to youth team practices and trying to build connections that way.

[esquire]

I follow the Ice (sorry, ICE) on social media and from what I can tell, Saturdays are the only day where the team consistently draws well, i.e. you can see in the pictures and highlight reels that the seats are mostly full. Everything else is weak. Even at last night's game (Sunday), the ends behind the nets were mostly empty which is shocking in a rink that only holds 1,600.

I'm going to Wednesday's game which will be my first weeknighter of the season, I'll report back on what it looks like first-hand.

[bomberjet]

I'd be more inclined to make the trek our to the new rink as opposed to max bell. And I live in the NE. It's look super amateurish, which it is amateur hockey. I suppose. But they're trying to run a a business at a pretty crappy venue.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I'd be more inclined to make the trek our to the new rink as opposed to max bell. And I live in the NE. It's look super amateurish, which it is amateur hockey. I suppose. But they're trying to run a a business at a pretty crappy venue.

I live a fairly short hop away from UM so I don't mind going to Ice games. But no one else I know really wants to go, especially people who live more than a 15 minute drive from the rink. I probably wouldn't bother going either if I lived in NK.

And yeah, like it or not atmosphere is part of the product when you're selling sports and there isn't really a ton of it with the Ice, unless you happen to be there on a Saturday night and the place is full.

[trueviking]

went to a game on saturday. was fun. I would go again.

I will be verry interested to see if they actually do build a new arena. I can't imagine taking such a risk on an unproven product. It will easily be a $70-million investment. What if it fails? Which it likely will at some point. How do you pay the mortgage on an empty 5,000 seat arena in the middle of nowhere.

If they do build, they will have to upgrade the road. It's already dangerous little two lane highway with people flying at 120km/h....add 5,000 cars trying to turn off?

I also think the ICE branding sucks. The logo is crappy. It should be hyper local.

Will take at least 18-24 months to build an arena that size, so they will be at U of M for a while. Without any fanfare, I suspect the first shovel isnt imminent.

I wonder if the new location will be a good thing or bad. For me, It will likely be a deterrent. Traffic is brutal out there. It's a long way to go. Will certainly be forced to pay for parking. It's already $10 at U of M.

[esquire]

^ Hadn't occurred to me but yeah, I could see traffic being an issue. It'll be like our little Canadian Tire Centre in the middle of nowhere with massive congestion after the games.

I'm assuming that The Rink's programs must be the fallback plan here, no? They need more rink capacity either way. If the bottom falls out of the Ice, they sell the team and then dedicate the arena to their training programs and the Blues. But once people get to know the Ice I think they'll do reasonably well. Maybe not making money hand over fist, but enough to pay the bills and to keep the operation going.

[trueviking]

There is a big difference between a $70-million WHL arena with 5,000+ seats, luxury suites, scoreboard and all the modern hospitality facilities they are proposing and a $10-million sheet of practice ice rented at $210 an hour to the Corydon Winterhawks 10A3 team.

Just seems like a huge risk for an unproven product. I would bet 99% of the population don't even know they exist. Will people ever really pay money for it? The Jets are even starting to struggle. A lot of dollars to be split for hockey. They are competing against the TNSE juggernaught who own the Moose and their arena will be in the middle of nowhere.

The Moose have brand recognition, player recognition, a convenient big-league arena and are backstopped by the Jets so it doesnt really matter if they fail.

I agree that some hockey fans will like junior better than AHL, but will that be enough?

Glad its not my money.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Hadn't occurred to me but yeah, I could see traffic being an issue. It'll be like our little Canadian Tire Centre in the middle of nowhere with massive congestion after the games.

I'm assuming that The Rink's programs must be the fallback plan here, no? They need more rink capacity either way. If the bottom falls out of the Ice, they sell the team and then dedicate the arena to their training programs and the Blues. But once people get to know the Ice I think they'll do reasonably well. Maybe not making money hand over fist, but enough to pay the bills and to keep the operation going.

Yes, traffic near The Rink location is an issue currently but minor changes like adding a traffic light would go a long way to addressing them. In the longer term the William Clement and Sterling Lyon extensions would effectively solve most of those issues.

In terms of the whole Rink/Ice operation the longer term reality I think is the Rink RHA program is more the revenue driver. If they are smart the develop a plan that let's them start a little smaller, say a 2,000 seat arena but with seating only on one side that can be fairly easily expanded with addition seating. And build the luxury boxes in such a way that they could be converted fairly easily to something like film rooms, coaching offices or classrooms for the RHA program.

Reality is parents are going to put out some major cash for kids to be in the RHA program and there is ultimately the revenue driver. All the all system needs is one or two players to go RHA->Blues->Ice->high round NHL draft->NHL star to really be able to start ramping up their program in a major way.

In terms of the arena itself, it will likely be home for more than just the Ice and Blues, the two Bisons teams come to mind. I am sure others will be recruited to make it their home as well for games, another guess would be the Balmoral Hall hockey team. A longer term vision might be to get a high level women's team with national team players/prospects based out of the facility.

To be honest I am somewhat surprised that TNSE hasn't done more to increase the seating at the Ice Plex and turned that into the home facility for the Moose. If TNSE announced plans to move to the Moose to a roughly 5,000 seat upgraded Ice Plex the whole plans for The Rink's facility would be dead before the shovel hit the ground.

[esquire]

^ Why would TNSE spend money on building an arena for the Moose when they have empty dates at BMTSP? BMTSP is convenient for pretty well everyone, while a small rink on the west edge of town would make attending games a far less appealing prospect for anyone in the eastern half of the city. And nothing they could build at the Iceplex could rival BMTSP for amenities and overall fan comfort.

Although I guess if the 50 Below guys build their rink and the Ice fails, TNSE could scoop up the distressed asset cheap

The Ice have something like seven games left in their homestand and ticket sales look terrible. They're basically giving tickets away through social media now. I think the team is amazing and they're playing awesome hockey but this is starting to look grim... vike's right, signing on for a mortgage into the tens of millions when you can't sell a thousand tickets a game for one of the hottest teams in junior hockey seems dubious.

I really hope they can get over these initial bumps and make it work...I'd love to see them carve out a niche in the sports firmament here. I just wonder why nobody thought to bring a WHL team here in, say, 1999 when it would have commanded the attention of sports fans.

[drew]

I agree with CoryB's assessment. They can build a fairly modest rink for the Ice that is expandable and meets their needs, while also getting enveloped into their overall business scheme.

I still think the owner's business plan is more or less to cater to and attract the hockey rich area of SW Winnipeg.

In that scenario, the location of their facility is just about perfect, and no one in that area of town is going to get too worked up about the traffic. It will likely mean that people in that area will shift from the Moose to the Ice for that price point of hockey.

And as for congestion - it's basically the same traffic they all deal with at that ridiculous Costco parking lot.

I also don't think the attendance numbers while at the UofM mean much in the grand scheme of things. It's like when the Goldeyes played out of the Bombers stadium for a few years. Horrible place to watch baseball. But they built their own little facility, and "they did come". Same scenario is reasonable to expect for the Ice IMO.