SAN ANTONIO │ Frost Bank Headquarters │ 386 FEET | 23 FLOORS │ Complete

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by AwesomeSAView

New building to be built being described as an iconic skyscraper that San Antonians will be proud of. I too, think it will be 50 plus stories! Another story I read on the proposal, said the current tallest building is the Marriott at 40 stories. So with that in mind, I think Weston would like to build a "new" tallest building downtown!

I like the enthusiasm, but I highly doubt that this will be a 50 floor building. You can't compare it to the Marriott's 40 hotel floors (38) to this Proposed Office Building.

Here is a list of office buildings under construction in the US that are between 40 and 51 floors; with heights:
780' - 51
757' - 49
732' - 50
660' - 43
634' - 45

...and here is a list of buildings closer to the 30-40 range (Frost Proposal):
550' - 33
524' - 37
521' - 36
520' - 33
477' - 30
470' - 31
455'/424' - 30
441' - 28

Only one of these building appeared to have a true Crown so that will give this building some added height, as would a podium garage. I am guessing that it will fall anywhere from 450-550'. Hopping for closer to 550'.

Regardless this will most likely be the new tallest building in San Antonio.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by fordman2800

It's a pretty decent size lot....but we're in San Antonio, it'll probably be a 25-30 story building. I hate to be negative but it's the truth. It would be nice to see a 45-50 story building finally be built in downtown.

The bigger the lot the shorter the tower would be. This is because they would have more room to build. If it's a small lot, they would be forced to make it skinnier and taller. Another issue is that office buildings these days have floorplates of around 25,000 square feet or bigger. Companies prefer to have as many of their employees as possible on as few floors as possible to increase productivity. It decreases wait times on elevators and other detours they might make between tasks. If they're planning 400,000 square feet, they could achieve that with as few as 16 floors. And of course this is Texas, so it could have 10 to 12 floors of parking. So I'd guess maybe 26 to 28 floors. The last office tower to be completed in Austin was almost exactly that size. 400 feet tall with 29 floors and 375,000 square feet. It has 11 floors of parking. They could add a 100 foot crown or some kind of top that would push its height to 500 feet, and that would easily be San Antonio's tallest (not counting the tower).

One thing, though, office buildings do have more space between each floor. So an office tower with a smaller number of floors than a hotel could still be taller than a hotel or very near the same height. That building in Austin I mentioned above is 400 feet tall with 29 floors, while the 34-story JW Marriott 2 blocks away is only 8 feet taller.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by STLtoSA

The initial proposal had diagrams displaying what the heights might be. See below:





I really like that the plan is for retail on the first couple levels of the Parking garage. I hope that sticks.

I am not a huge fan of podium garages and this is a large site, but since this might be in the 25-35 range, I will take it to get the extra height.

518 would make it the tallest in the city. That 546 figure for the Marriott is bogus. It is really in the 470-490 range.

It will be pretty exciting seeing this project move forward, as well as the other ancillary projects that are part of the plan.

I don't trust the heights for any of those existing buildings except for the one for the Grand Hyatt since I've actually seen the architectural plans for it that showed it to be 424 feet. The old Frost Bank Tower isn't even 300 feet. That was an old estimate that someone posted to a list for San Antonio and the number stuck. The tallest I've been able to measure it at was 277 feet. And there is no way the Marriott Rivercenter is 546 feet. The top of the spires only appear to be slightly higher than the roof of the Grand Hyatt from just about every angle. I've only been able to measure it at between 455 and 466 feet tall. And I've seen it listed as short as 441 feet before. I also think the Weston Center is taller than 444 feet, somewhere between 455 and 466 feet.. The Tower Life and Bank of America heights are probably correct.

Originally Posted by Keep-SA-Lame

The Weston Center is 32 stories and 550 feet if you include the boxy crown, according to emporis.

http://www.emporis.com/buildings/118...antonio-tx-usa

Since Emporis was bought out and I quit editing the San Antonio page, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of those heights anymore. I'm not even sure the people editing it live in Texas. The tallest I've ever been able to measure it was 466 feet. I think the 550 foot height was referring to the antennas atop the box structure, and even then I'm wondering if that is only the sea level elevation from the riverwalk level. I don't think the antennas up there are in upwards of 70 to 90 feet tall, especially when you realize the published height of the flagpole atop the Tower Life Building is 100 feet, and the old antenna was 137 feet. Antennas on buildings are rarely more than 15 to 25 feet unless they're a lattice construction with warning lights.

[AwesomeSAView]

So okay, the new Frost tower may not be 50 stories, but I am celebrating the fact that this proposal is very close and will likely become to fruition. Also, celebrating the economic impact this will have in downtown San Antonio! IMO, it seems ALL the parts of the puzzle are coming together for the city of San Antonio at just the right time. ( Hemisfair Park development, La Villata redevelopment, San Pedro Creek redevelopment, the Pearl development, the numerous residential developments, the Frost tower proposal development, St. Paul's Square development, the Alamo Plaza redevelopment ) All these developments are in and around the surrounding areas of downtown. The developments are just not downtown, like we have seen in several cities recently. They are a mix of developments that incorporate not just new buildings downtown, but park and recreational areas, as well as areas of fine dining, shopping and music venues. Once everything is constructed and developed, the city will have a new look for the betterment of all citizens and visitors of San Antonio.


ALWAYS THINK POSITIVE

[STLtoSA]

The only one that is way off is the Marriott in the comparison above, which was the point. Therefore it will not take much for this new Frost Bank tower to break the tallest mark in the city.

How tall these buildings are really depends on where you measure them to. If someone where to measure them to river level, that could add as much as 25-30 feet. I have generally measured them to the lowest street level point. Below are some fairly accurate measurements (UNC 10'):

~470' - Marriott River Center
~456' - Weston
~424' - Grand Hyatt
~400' (not including 100' flag pole) - Tower Life
~385' - BofA Plaza
~345' - Wyndham
~345/311/283' - Drury
~299/267' - AT&T
~287' - NIX
~270' - Frost Bank

This will get rubber stamped in June and then the next waiting game begins...the design.

It will be fun to watch this develop.

[21bl0wed]

Shouldn't the floor count in the title be "N/A"??

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

The tallest I've ever been able to measure it (MARRIOTT RIVER CENTER) was 466 feet. I think the 550 foot height was referring to the antennas atop the box structure, and even then I'm wondering if that is only the sea level elevation from the riverwalk level.

The rumor that I heard was that it was originally supposed to be taller than it was eventually built...the old number just stuck. As for the spires atop the pyramid structure, they are about 50' tall.
~359 - Roof
~378 - Top of Marriott sign
~420 - Top of Pyramid structure
~470 - Top of Spire

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I don't think the antennas up there are in upwards of 70 to 90 feet tall

They are somewhere between 40 and 55 feet tall. I think that 45' is closer to the right number, but I just round it up to 50'.

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by 21bl0wed

Shouldn't the floor count in the title be "N/A"??

Yes, that would be best. Or they could go the range route (only adjusted); 25-40.

[SAguy]

From mysa.com-

The probability of San Antonio getting a much-needed addition to its stagnant skyline is unquestionably exciting. This week, the city, Weston Urban and Frost Bank made official an agreement that is set to deliver downtown’s first office tower in more than 25 years.

And while we have a limited say because the new tower will be built with private money, we sure can judge.

Is the new Frost Bank Tower too ambitious, just right or not ambitious enough?

For starters, it needs the wow factor.

And with an international design competition, we should get a cool-looking, distinctive structure that dominates the skyline regardless of its overall height.

The proposed 400,000-square-foot tower, cater-corner from the current Frost building on West Houston Street, will be Weston Urban’s first development of any kind.

Backed by Rackpace Chairman Graham Weston, weston urban is going from zero to tower in a short amount of time, making the venture a bold one.

But Weston Urban is partnering with Dallas developer KDC to build Frost’s new headquarters. And KDC has been putting up office buildings since the 1980s.

“As it relates to the complexity of the project, that’s why we select top-notch, experienced partners,” weston urban President Randy Smith said.

“It’s absolutely ambitious. We have a great big vision for downtown.”

Or will the tower lack that wow factor?

After all, the existing Weston Centre is nearly 500,000 square feet of office tucked inside 30 stories of building.

By comparison, the Frost Tower will be 400,000 square feet tucked inside, well, we don’t know how tall — yet.

Weston Urban won’t know the height until it starts seeing the designs stemming from the competition it will host in the next couple of months. It will be seeking national and international architecture firms to compete in the design of the envisaged high-rise.

Logic says that if the Frost Bank Tower contains less office space than the larger Weston Centre, the Frost tower will have fewer stories.

But that’s not necessarily true. Some skinnier trees soar over thicker ones. And, as Smith points out, a building’s number of stories are irrelevant. Height is what matters, and at 444 feet, the Weston Centre is the third-tallest downtown structure.

So which is it? Is Weston Urban's proposal too ambitious, just right or not ambitious enough?

It. Does. Not. Matter.

Just build the darn thing.

Here is Weston, a local billionaire, paired with an experienced developer, who wants to build something new and large in a downtown that so desperately needs it.

Let that first domino drop.

The symbiotic development (even if they aren’t towers) and businesses that will result seem inevitable. Match that development with the $175 million San Pedro Creek project, a literal stone’s throw west from where the tower will go, and you have true urban synergy that city leaders won’t have to exaggerate about. It will just be.

Once a retail and entertainment corridor, the western half of Houston Street teemed with life at the time. But, decades ago, urban renewal efforts leveled much of those buildings and retail spots.

An iconic, tall building, one that hopefully will add buzzed-about architecture while complementing the existing skyline, can do all of that with its mere creation.

Yes, because size does matter when it comes to skylines, it would be nice if it were the tallest building downtown — a true skyscraper. But given the feeble state of our skyline, and the need for a spark to the west, who the heck cares?

[KevinFromTexas]

They're relying on heights from Emporis, though, and I wouldn't. The Grand Hyatt is 424 feet. I've seen the actual building plans that shows that height. On the skyline, from just about any angle, Weston Center is a good bit taller than both the Grand Hyatt and Marriott Rivercenter. Weston Center is without a doubt San Antonio's tallest multi-storied building, and it's taller than 444 feet. The lower observation deck level of the Tower of the Americas is at 560 feet. The bottom of the "top house" is 550 feet, and there's no way any of those buildings come close to that just by comparing them on the skyline. For anyone who is up to the task to do it, you can contact the city and request public information that would allow you to view the original building plans for any building in the city. That would show you the building heights. I've done the same for Austin and learned a lot that way. You can even have copies made.

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by SAguy

From mysa.com-

I don't think there is much question to whether or not this will be the tallest downtown building.

These are the heights to top:
~470' - Marriott River Center
~456' - Weston

The Weston Center may be 500,000 sq ft, but square footage is not a good predictor of building height. The writer touched on that, but the overall feeling that I got from the piece was that the writer was skeptical or hesitant to believe that this will become the cities tallest. However, I share the "who the heck cares attitude". This development is going to be great and all of the addition developments that are part of the deal and others that might spur because of them are going to charge that side of downtown.

29 floors - 988,000 sqft - 557' -- Thomas Eagleton Federal Courthouse
33 floors - 545,500 sqft - 515' -- Frost Bank Tower (Austin)

These are two building with large floor plates. I don't think that the massing of this building will be the same, and it can't to be the tallest at 400,000 sqft.

I envision something similar in height and floor count to Frost Bank Tower in Austin. The base may be similar in size, but I believe there will be more set backs and maybe slope (especially above the Frost Floors).

I calculated what the height would be based on the podium garage, sloped/set back tower, with a crown and got 509', which is fairly close to the 518' in the proposal. The proposal showed 29 floors, but I broke up the tower by square footage and got 30 floors.

1 - Lobby - 30,000 sqft
6 - Garage
1 - speculative space @ 16,000 sqft
12 - Frost @ 16,000 sqft/fl
10 - Speculative Space @ avg 13,000 sqft/floor

I can't wait to see the design concepts come out over the next few months.

[Fireoutofclay]

The Weston Centre should look taller in the skyline because it is built is on a higher level of downtown. This gives any building in north downtown the perception of being taller. So even 518 ft will definitely appear taller in the skyline. And if we choose to evaluate our skyline in terms of height perception, then it would make more sense not to build much taller than that. Imagine how much taller a building of 600ft-700ft feet might appear in a downtown dense with buildings in the 350' to 450' range. New Orleans is a pretty good example of this; it has a robust skyline while only 2 of the buildings are taller than 600 feet. I laugh when I hear visitors guess the height of the Tower of the Americas to be 900 or 1000 ft, and I love to see their faces when I tell them the actual height.
We shouldn't dwell too much on height because, in our skyline, anything over 300 feet will make a difference (even the Vistana Building added to our skyline).

And we're still home to USAA, one of the largest office buildings in the country, and the largest building in Texas.

[wwmiv]

There are people who seriously believe that the ToA is 1000'?

[texboy]

I'm in total agreement with the folks that are on the idea of height doesn't matter. Finally SA is seeing the investment it so desperately needed in downtown.... and investment that doesn't seem to include much accommodation for tourists which SA has enough of. Austin's Frost tower is by no means the tallest anymore, but was pretty clearly one of the major catalysts for Austin's downtown renaissance. To say this will be a catalyst for more investment is an understatement.... I would almost come close to saying this could stimulate a similar downtown boom that Austin experienced after their Frost tower was constructed. It was built in the right location, at the right time with the right design to spark interest and inspiration. SA is already seeing a renaissance in River North/Pearl... this development should help bring that renaissance south.

[STLtoSA]

Originally Posted by Fireoutofclay

The Weston Centre should look taller in the skyline because it is built is on a higher level of downtown. This gives any building in north downtown the perception of being taller. So even 518 ft will definitely appear taller in the skyline.

This is not true...well the perception thing is, but not the variance in ground level.

In actuality there is not much difference in the two parts of town.

Here is a list of the approximate elevations of the lobby for each building:
Building - Google Earth - COSA Elevation Data 2010
Marriott River Center - 663 - 650
Grand Hyatt - 661 - 650
Weston Center - 656 - 650
New Frost - 656 - 650

I have heard that elevation thing before, but I believed that stemmed from people trying to justify the false height of the Marriott River Center. It wasn't until the Grand Hyatt was built that it was obvious that the reported height of the Marriott was false (drastically).

The elevation at the Pearl is 660. There are spots on the West side of downtown that are around 650 and there are some spots north of Central Catholic that get into the upper 660's, but the reality is that most of downtown is the same elevation.

[Fireoutofclay]

Originally Posted by STLtoSA

This is not true...well the perception thing is, but not the variance in ground level.

In actuality there is not much difference in the two parts of town.


I have heard that elevation thing before, but I believed that stemmed from people trying to justify the false height of the Marriott River Center. It wasn't until the Grand Hyatt was built that it was obvious that the reported height of the Marriott was false (drastically).

I appreciate the Google estimates, but there is absolutely a variance in ground level, at least with regard to the Weston Centre. And I'm not suggesting that the Weston was built on the top of a cliff, but it is at a higher level than its immediate area. And I've walked around every street downtown and I was aware of the slopes as I walked from one side of downtown to the other. I say this not to justify false heights, only to explain why the building might look taller than 444 feet. I probably shouldn't have grouped all of north downtown together. I admit I originally formed that conclusion from an illustration of the bypass tunnel under downtown. And I am certainly not a stubborn person. I will absolutely concede to hard facts. After all, we've all been to The Tracks down south, right?

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

There are people who seriously believe that the ToA is 1000'?

I had a woman at the front desk of the Hotel Valencia on Houston Street tell me with a straight face after doing some quick calculations on her calculator, that it was 1,200 feet tall. I smiled, thanked her and left abruptly.

Whatever the height of this building ends up being, I really do hope it ends up being taller than Austin's Frost Bank Tower.

And yeah, San Antonio's downtown is relatively flat. Then again, I'm used to how Austin's is where you might have a 20+ foot elevation difference on one block, and downtown ranges from 452 feet above sea level to 572 feet inside of 18 blocks.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I had a woman at the front desk of the Hotel Valencia on Houston Street tell me with a straight face after doing some quick calculations on her calculator, that it was 1,200 feet tall. I smiled, thanked her and left abruptly.

Whatever the height of this building ends up being, I really do hope it ends up being taller than Austin's Frost Bank Tower.

And yeah, San Antonio's downtown is relatively flat. Then again, I'm used to how Austin's is where you might have a 20+ foot elevation difference on one block, and downtown ranges from 452 feet above sea level to 572 feet inside of 18 blocks.

Wow.

[JACKinBeantown]

Originally Posted by STLtoSA

The initial proposal had diagrams displaying what the heights might be. See below:





I really like that the plan is for retail on the first couple levels of the Parking garage. I hope that sticks.

I am not a huge fan of podium garages and this is a large site, but since this might be in the 25-35 range, I will take it to get the extra height.

518 would make it the tallest in the city. That 546 figure for the Marriott is bogus. It is really in the 470-490 range.

It will be pretty exciting seeing this project move forward, as well as the other ancillary projects that are part of the plan.

The fact that the crown is constantly the same height makes it appear that they already had a basic design in mind but the number of floors was the variable. If they're looking for proposals from multiple architects then that will obviously change, but I like that there was a crown in at least the initial proposal. It might be a good harbinger of things to come. And of course I'm hoping for the garage to be incorporated into the building to make it taller and have less garage affronting the street.

[tsm]

More details:

http://www.therivardreport.com/brief...-bank-project/