2019 Population Estimate of Canadian Metropolitan Areas

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree on all points. If the guy was from Quebec City it would be more understandable but it's harder to live in an exclusively francophone bubble in Montreal despite francophones being in the majority. In Montreal you're going to run into anglophones constantly. Those anglophones will likely speak French to you but it's still bizarre to grow up there and not pick up some English.
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It's harder in Montreal proper but not impossible, as shown by the stats I just posted. You can be a high school principal in a French school even in the parts of town with more anglos and still not have use English much at all, as officialdom is all in French: you can take transit, buy groceries, do your banking, take part in neighbourhood town hall meetings, go to the movies, etc. all in French. So lots of people do that, even if there are frequently people within earshot who are speaking English.

Similar to how lots of Americans live in places where there are tons of Hispanics and don't know much more than a few words of basic Spanish.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

In most other areas, French Canadians and English Canadians share the same Canadian culture with only minor variations. Our lifestyle, clothes, homes, traditions, holidays, sports, fashion, suburbs, food, etc. is Canadian peppered with some random foreign things like soccer.
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It's quite true that outside Quebec there is a common, dominant cultural feel, though "foreign" influences are massively American to the point of being dominant on many fronts. Unless by "Canadian" you also mean "North American".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Nite

The only official language in Quebec is French however so your assumption is what's to blame then.

Even the Canadian federal government and its agencies (like Canada Post) also operate very predominantly in French in Quebec - even though services to citizens are always offered in both languages upon request.

[begratto]

I think some of you guys overestimate our exposure to English. Most people, even in the Montreal area, NEVER use English in their daily life. Work, school, TV, radio, movies, shows, every single one of these things are in French. Not as in "they're available in French for those who want it". No. The default language for these things is French.

Of course if you visit Montreal you'll get the impression that English is widely spoken, but that's because you most probably stay downtown, where the 2 English-language universities are located. So you have thousands of out-of-province students in the area. Also there is a higher concentration of jobs that requires knowledge of English in downtown or in the West Island. Pretty much everywhere else, north, east, south of downtown, there is a much higher probability that the working environment is 100% French.

Most high school principals (to take Acajack's example), teachers, nurses, bank managers, lawyers, crown's prosecutor, financial analyst, grocery clerks, city workers etc spend 100% of their daily activities in French.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Montreal’s bilingualism is dominant as much as many francophone may want to say otherwise. Listen to conversations at a restaurant and a good chunk will be in English. My time in Montreal as an anglophone (albeit limited) has seen absolutely no barriers to communication, even in the depths of the suburbs where tourists would be less common. That isn’t as true in Quebec City.

When you see Montreal’s large English media, the amount of business conducted in English, and the amount of English heard on the streets, it’s pretty hard to claim it isn’t a bilingual city.

Doesn't that speak more to the global (or at least Western) dominance of English than Montreal's status as a bilingual city? I think you would probably see similar English usage in Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt, but these cities aren't bilingual, just global Western cities, hence English-oriented. You would undoubtedly still hear a ton of English in downtown Montreal even if nearly all Montreal residents conversed almost entirely in French.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Unfortunately, especially for Hamilton, old stereotypes die hard. Hamilton is still known as a industrial, grimy, dirty, rough around the edges kind of place and the butt of jokes. Conversely, London is not near as white collar as it use to be but still enjoys it's reputation as being a monied, university, beautiful, tranquil, old wealth, and great place to raise you family away from the Toronto urban blob. This is why Londoners are often seen as rather snotty {which they definitely can be} because they look down on every other city in Southern Ontario except Toronto as being unattractive and unrefined.

Wait, I had no idea of this. London, ON is considered a posh, uppity town? Kinda like a Santa Barbara or Connecticut of Ontario? I thought is was a mildly pleasant typical university town, overall pretty unremarkable.

And Hamilton doesn't strike me as U.S.-style Rustbelt. It's more like a behind-the-times, uncool feel. Where grandma lives. Like stuck in 1995 compared to Toronto.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wait, I had no idea of this. London, ON is considered a posh, uppity town? Kinda like a Santa Barbara or Connecticut of Ontario? I thought is was a mildly pleasant typical university town, overall pretty unremarkable.

And Hamilton doesn't strike me as U.S.-style Rustbelt. It's more like a behind-the-times, uncool feel. Where grandma lives. Like stuck in 1995 compared to Toronto.

It really isn’t by most people not from London. It does however have a reputation for snobby, insular people and a very sketchy downtown with drug and crime issues, unfortunately not unlike other cities in Ontario in this day and age.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Wait, I had no idea of this. London, ON is considered a posh, uppity town? Kinda like a Santa Barbara or Connecticut of Ontario? I thought is was a mildly pleasant typical university town, overall pretty unremarkable.
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It still really is as you describe in the bolded.

The reason that it stands out is that except for Toronto obviously and also Kitchener-Waterloo (which is a booming techno-hub) most of the larger cities in southern Ontario are formerly pretty darn affluent blue collar industrial places that have lost a lot of their lustre as they have very slowly declined in the past couple of decades. They're not in tragic decline like many U.S. Rust Belt cities but they're not considered especially nice either.

London has seen very little of that post-industrial decline.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by begratto

I think some of you guys overestimate our exposure to English. Most people, even in the Montreal area, NEVER use English in their daily life. Work, school, TV, radio, movies, shows, every single one of these things are in French. Not as in "they're available in French for those who want it". No. The default language for these things is French.

Of course if you visit Montreal you'll get the impression that English is widely spoken, but that's because you most probably stay downtown, where the 2 English-language universities are located. So you have thousands of out-of-province students in the area. Also there is a higher concentration of jobs that requires knowledge of English in downtown or in the West Island. Pretty much everywhere else, north, east, south of downtown, there is a much higher probability that the working environment is 100% French.

Most high school principals (to take Acajack's example), teachers, nurses, bank managers, lawyers, crown's prosecutor, financial analyst, grocery clerks, city workers etc spend 100% of their daily activities in French.

I live in Gatineau which is 15% anglo and we're also part of the same metro as Ottawa which is right across the river in Ontario and four times bigger. So depending on where I am in the city, there are usually local anglos plus people from Ottawa in the vicinity speaking in English.

But unless an anglo addresses me specifically (which in some cases they might actually do in French - fluent or broken) like to ask for directions or something, I basically never use English when I am out and about in my city.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And Hamilton doesn't strike me as U.S.-style Rustbelt. It's more like a behind-the-times, uncool feel. Where grandma lives. Like stuck in 1995 compared to Toronto.

To use a California metaphor, Hamilton is a Bakersfield or Fresno kind of place.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Doesn't that speak more to the global (or at least Western) dominance of English than Montreal's status as a bilingual city? I think you would probably see similar English usage in Paris, Amsterdam and Frankfurt, but these cities aren't bilingual, just global Western cities, hence English-oriented. You would undoubtedly still hear a ton of English in downtown Montreal even if nearly all Montreal residents conversed almost entirely in French.

It's the combined effect of that global phenomenon plus the presence of a fairly large locally entrenched community. Even though that community's power has diminished over the last 50 years, it was still the socio-economically dominant minority in the city/province for 150 years, and the vestiges of that era still have some legs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ It's my understanding that francophones in Quebec don't consume a lot of anglophone television, film, and to a substantial degree, music. The news media would be through a French-Canadian lens, as well. .

Well, the Netflix era has done what CFCF (the classic private anglo over the air TV station whose basic lineup was the most popular shows hand picked from CBS-NBC-ABC) was never able to do: break the strangle-hold of Quebec French productions on the Québécois market.

That said, even today the most popular TV shows in Montreal/Quebec are still almost all Quebec-made, but other stuff has made a dent. Whereas not that long ago you would have been hard-pressed to find a Québécois person to talk about LA Law or The West Wing, today it's not that hard to find fans of House of Cards or Stranger Things here.

One of the reasons might be that most everything on Netflix comes with a wide range of language options, including dubbed into French or original English audio with French subtitles. Traditional TV stations like CTV don't offer that.

Just looking at my kids who are teens, they watch Quebec TV shows but they also watch stuff on Netflix like Stranger Things and Riverdale. They're also very much a "don't care about the origin generation", and their favourite show of all-time on Netflix is the Spanish series Casa de Papel, which they watch in Spanish with French subtitles. They also watch Spanish and Italian teen series like Élite and Baby, and even stuff from Scandinavia, Russia, etc. And of course from France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ It's my understanding that francophones in Quebec don't consume a lot of anglophone television, film, and to a substantial degree, music. .

English language music has always been quite popular among francophones, for the same reason it's popular all over the world.

When U2 or Elton John or Taylor Swift play in front of 60,000 people at Olympic Stadium or 20,000 people at the Bell Centre, the crowd isn't made up of 90% anglophone Montrealers and border hoppers from northern NY, VT and NH.

You don't even really need to understand the lyrics in order to like certain types of music, just like you guys don't understand an opera by Giuseppe Verdi, or K-Pop like Gangnam Style.

Overall, music in French (either from Quebec, France or other places) has about half the market in music sales.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

^^ It's my understanding that francophones in Quebec don't consume a lot of anglophone television, film, and to a substantial degree, music.

As in many other places around the world, Hollywood movies (in original English, dubbed in French or subtitled) are mainstream in Quebec. Their market share is about 75-80%, which it is true is lower than in the rest of Canada where it's about 99.9%. Quebec movies do make a showing with around 15% of the market most years. And it's not rare that Quebec movies top the box office, or are even the single most popular movie of the year, ahead of Hollywood blockbusters. Movies from other countries (especially France) make up the rest of the market here.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even the Canadian federal government and its agencies (like Canada Post) also operate very predominantly in French in Quebec - even though services to citizens are always offered in both languages upon request.

Even in Ottawa, the federal bureaucracy (at least parts of it) seem to operate with a much higher dominance of French than the city as a whole. As someone in the private sector, the public service seems like a different world.

[edale]

Just want to say this is a fascinating discussion. It's true, I never realized Quebec was so French. I've been to Montreal and Quebec City a few times, and while I know that French is widely spoken, I guess my exposure to just the tourist and cosmopolitan areas led me to believe that it was truly a bilingual society, and that people just spoke French to hold on to their cultural identity. I had no idea that Quebec had its own film industry, or that movies from France would also be popular there. It makes sense, but for some reason I just assumed the French connection in Quebec was more symbolic than anything.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by edale

Just want to say this is a fascinating discussion. It's true, I never realized Quebec was so French. I've been to Montreal and Quebec City a few times, and while I know that French is widely spoken, I guess my exposure to just the tourist and cosmopolitan areas led me to believe that it was truly a bilingual society, and that people just spoke French to hold on to their cultural identity. I had no idea that Quebec had its own film industry, or that movies from France would also be popular there. It makes sense, but for some reason I just assumed the French connection in Quebec was more symbolic than anything.

If you know anything about languages you should have known that this was impossible. If everyone spoke English fluently, then French wouldn't survive.

For an American example - without even looking at detailed stats I can guarantee a significant chunk of people in places like Miami and El Paso are currently unilingual Spanish speakers. You wouldn't be observing anywhere near the current level of use, otherwise.

[Steely Dan]

Do french canadians have any special access rights to french citizenship (if they are so inclined to obtain such)?

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by edale

Just want to say this is a fascinating discussion. It's true, I never realized Quebec was so French. I've been to Montreal and Quebec City a few times, and while I know that French is widely spoken, I guess my exposure to just the tourist and cosmopolitan areas led me to believe that it was truly a bilingual society, and that people just spoke French to hold on to their cultural identity. I had no idea that Quebec had its own film industry, or that movies from France would also be popular there. It makes sense, but for some reason I just assumed the French connection in Quebec was more symbolic than anything.

Driving into it from NY, it feels like you are instantly transported to another country. All of the highway signs are in French. The music in the radio, the tv channels, many dubbed in French if they were originally in English. I met people who don’t speak English well enough to communicate with me. Visiting made me realized that I should learn and immerse myself in French if I ever want to fully experience the place. I hope it never changes.

[edale]

Originally Posted by lio45

If you know anything about languages you should have known that this was impossible. If everyone spoke English fluently, then French wouldn't survive.

For an American example - without even looking at detailed stats I can guarantee a significant chunk of people in places like Miami and El Paso are currently unilingual Spanish speakers. You wouldn't be observing anywhere near the current level of use, otherwise.

There are communities in places of the US where there are lots of unilingual Spanish speakers. I live in Los Angeles and am very familiar with this. But I can go essentially anywhere in the city and still be able to speak English. I assumed Quebec functioned like this, too. Like French is spoken in the home and among French people, but they all/most could at least hold a basic conversation in English. Quebec is a far more insular place than I realized.