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  #401  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 6:01 PM
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Looking at streetviews of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, Toronto shares a lot of the same aesthetics.



https://www.google.ca/maps/@40.05124...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@40.04285...7i16384!8i8192

the semidetached is the dominant housing type in many Toronto neighborhoods
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  #402  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
In the bulk of possible scenarios, St. Louis would be the American interior's dominant city. There's a reason why Cahokia's ruins are to be found in the St. Louis metro: the region was the greatest crossroads of trade routes to be found on the continent when trade would have been conducted primary or exclusively via navigation. It is in St. Louis where the main north-south trade route running up the Mississippi meets the main east-west one running down the Ohio and up the Missouri.

Had St. Louis had time to claim its primate role before the railroads came, it is unlikely Chicago would have surpassed it.

That said, a major city was destined to grow up in the Chicago area, sitting, as it does, at the best portage between the Mississippi River and Great Lakes systems, and with the straight-shot trade route linking it with St. Louis that is the Illinois River, there are many many alternate history (and dystopian future!) scenarios you can imagine where the Illinois River valley becomes the heartland of significant empires stretching across the interior Midwest.
for sure. st. louis was fortuitously sited for greatness.

but the machinations of man often supersede the illusory notion of geographic predestination.

entire books have been written on why chicago, and not st. louis, became the interior alpha, but two of the biggies are:

1. the erie canal. once new york city, with its unparalleled deep water port, was connected to the bounty of the great lakes via the erie canal, the lakes themselves became the main east-west transportation waterway system in the country. not only did the canal further fuel NYC's rise as the east coast alpha, but all of that newly amassed new york capital saw chicago, sited at the opposite end of that waterway system, as the clear choice in the interior to bet big on.

2. the civil war. situated ~250 miles SW of chicago, st. louis was a lot closer to the turmoil that ripped the nation asunder (and located in a state with divided allegiances to boot), which scared away investors and drove yet even more capital to chicago.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 10, 2020 at 6:51 PM.
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  #403  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 7:00 PM
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Nevermind.

Last edited by iheartthed; Feb 10, 2020 at 11:11 PM.
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  #404  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
That Toronto link reminds me of the movie Four Brothers. It was set in Detroit, but parts of the movie was filmed in Toronto.
Those streetview links are of Philadelphia, not Toronto.
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  #405  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 10:57 PM
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South and north Philadelphia rowhouses look nothing like Toronto

Maybe parts of west philly or northeast philly have some resemblance
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  #406  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2020, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
Those streetview links are of Philadelphia, not Toronto.
Whoops.
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  #407  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2020, 12:34 AM
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Whoops.

It's okay, they fooled me for a second too.
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  #408  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2020, 5:34 AM
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Four Brothers was filmed in Hamilton, ON. I photographed some of the locations seen in the movie for my old Hamilton photo threads.

A lot of things are filmed in Hamilton and credited as Toronto, or they are filmed in multiple locations in the Toronto and Hamilton area.
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  #409  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2020, 10:25 PM
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There are some "rust belt-ish" aspects of Southern Ontario but you don't really have a "deep rust belt" feel in the same way as you do in western Pennsylvania, Ohio and Michigan, I don't think.

The old industrial city of Hamilton is pretty much part of the Toronto metro at this point. Kitchener-Waterloo is still somewhat in the Toronto orbit, grew rapidly after WWII and is now a pretty big high tech center. London was more traditionally white collar and the heart of SW Ontario, home to a major university, maybe somewhat akin to Columbus or Grand Rapids. It's really just around Windsor and Sarnia where you get more of a "deep rust belt" feel.

Last edited by Docere; Nov 20, 2020 at 12:30 AM.
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  #410  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2020, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samne View Post
Looking at streetviews of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, Toronto shares a lot of the same aesthetics.



https://www.google.ca/maps/@40.05124...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@40.04285...7i16384!8i8192

the semidetached is the dominant housing type in many Toronto neighborhoods
I noticed when driving through Pennsylvania that the older housing stock seems more similar to Ontario than the housing in Upstate NY does.
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  #411  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
I noticed when driving through Pennsylvania that the older housing stock seems more similar to Ontario than the housing in Upstate NY does.
Older housing stock in Pennsylvania differs greatly depending on what part of the state you're in... northern half or southern half.

The northern half older housing stock is New England/New York Yankee; southern half is Mid-Atlantic Midlands.

Much of Ontario looks to me like Upstate NY and northern PA.
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  #412  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
It's really just around Windsor and Sarnia where you get more of a "deep rust belt" feel.
What is this "deep rustbelt feel" that exists in Windsor but not Hamilton? This sounds subjective. High tech? The biggest employers in Hamilton are healthcare and manufacturing.

You forgot Windsor has a large university, lots of Torontonians go there too.
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  #413  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 12:29 AM
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Hamilton is 40 miles from Toronto and is quite integrated with the GTA. Windsor is a 3.5 hour drive from Toronto and across from Detroit.
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  #414  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Hamilton is 40 miles from Toronto and is quite integrated with the GTA. Windsor is a 3.5 hour drive from Toronto and across from Detroit.
Yes, and? Hamilton being attached to Toronto doesn't make it less "deep rustbelt". It's Canada's rustbelt capital if the country had one, which is apparently just a feeling that doesn't actually exist. Windsor is obviously connected to Detroit and not Toronto.

Windsor and London are very similar cities, but you're forcing some kind of arbitrary distinction.
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  #415  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 1:32 AM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Older housing stock in Pennsylvania differs greatly depending on what part of the state you're in... northern half or southern half.

The northern half older housing stock is New England/New York Yankee; southern half is Mid-Atlantic Midlands.

Much of Ontario looks to me like Upstate NY and northern PA.
This housing style is common in older (former) working class neighborhoods in Toronto:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6268...7i13312!8i6656
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  #416  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 2:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
This housing style is common in older (former) working class neighborhoods in Toronto:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6268...7i13312!8i6656
Sure, I realize that Toronto has a big mix, with plenty of side-by-side doubles like you see in PA (generally in the eastern/southeastern part of the state; northern and western PA have tons of doubles, but they are usually up-and-down).

Though I don't think that type of style is what one widely sees in most of Ontario. I grew up right across the lake from Ontario and have spent a lot of time in the province over the years... and the older neighborhoods in places like London, Hamilton, Kitchener, St. Catherines, etc. all strongly resemble neighborhoods in places like Rochester, Syracuse, Erie, Buffalo, etc.
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  #417  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Yes, and? Hamilton being attached to Toronto doesn't make it less "deep rustbelt". It's Canada's rustbelt capital if the country had one, which is apparently just a feeling that doesn't actually exist. Windsor is obviously connected to Detroit and not Toronto.

Windsor and London are very similar cities, but you're forcing some kind of arbitrary distinction.
Yeah, there is definitely no “deep rust belt feel” in the Windsor area. It might have felt a bit rusty around 2010 when the economy collapsed, but not now, there’s too much growth and investment going on, and we don’t have any urban prairies like true rust belt regions. There’s nothing in the area that comes close to Flar’s rather depressing photo shoot of his hometown of Wallaceburg.

And I agree that Windsor and London are more alike than different. The old stereotypes of industrial Windsor and white collar London have always been over exaggerated.
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  #418  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 1:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Hamilton is 40 miles from Toronto and is quite integrated with the GTA. Windsor is a 3.5 hour drive from Toronto and across from Detroit.
Just because we’re across from Detroit, doesn’t mean we share the same level of rustiness, it’s not even close. We share a lot of things in this region, but that ain’t one of them.
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  #419  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 1:30 PM
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Windsor, to me, feels pretty healthy. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a Rust Belt economy or a working class feel, though. The downtown is in sad shape, but that isn't really a Rust Belt-specific thing.

Also, Metro Detroit, as a whole, doesn't really feel Rust Belt, at least in the traditional sense you get in Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Buffalo. Too much endless McMansion sprawl and newer Sunbeltish growth. There aren't many old school giant factories and industrial landscapes just sitting around anymore, except around Zug Island.
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  #420  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Windsor, to me, feels pretty healthy. That doesn't mean it doesn't have a Rust Belt economy or a working class feel, though. The downtown is in sad shape, but that isn't really a Rust Belt-specific thing.

Also, Metro Detroit, as a whole, doesn't really feel Rust Belt, at least in the traditional sense you get in Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Buffalo. Too much endless McMansion sprawl and newer Sunbeltish growth. There aren't many old school giant factories and industrial landscapes just sitting around anymore, except around Zug Island.
st. louis is kind of like this too, with a massive spooge-out of 80s-00s sprawl that goes on and on. theres areas that feel like the fringes of atlanta or nashville with one road mcmansion subdivisions hacked out of ozark ridgetops.

the eastern rustbelt doesnt seem to have this nuclear blast of the same era development to the same extent and feels older on the fringes. chicago of course does have that massive ring of “Home Improvement” era suburbia too.
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