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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
I've always thought the white ethnic immigrant groups (Jews, Italians, Polish, etc) would have kept their stigma in relation to a WASP elite had the government not restricted immigration, similar to how Mexicans have retained a stigma despite having been in the US for many decades.

The immigration restrictions meant that those communities were not refreshed by new blood from the old country, so their cultures assimilated more quickly into American culture at large. By 1940, most white ethnics under the age of 20 had been born in the US, and of course the shared sacrifice of WWII helped bridge divides between those youngsters (who were draft eligible) and their WASPy counterparts.

By the postwar era, most people of European descent (within metropolitan areas) considered themselves to be part of the same racial group.
There are still plenty of white ethnic groups that identify with their Old World cultures, especially in places like Chicago, NYC etc. And do you, count for example, 1980s immigration from say, Eastern Europe, as "refreshing" the old Polish community? Even people with more distant immigration histories actually have ways of keeping touch with the old culture, though not everyone chooses to do so. I have met so many born-and-bred New Yorkers and Chicagoans who've been to Italy, Poland, Greece etc., and even smaller town midwestern and northeastern US cities have more people who've traveled to Europe than I had expected.

And also, it wasn't a one way street of WASPs absorbing the white ethnics -- eventually many of the white ethnics' own cultures started to become seen as part of American culture -- Italian cuisine like pizza, Jewish American humor, and Yiddish slang words etc. etc.

Even today, it's not a one way street of assimilation (although obviously the immigrants absorb much more of the pre-existing cultures than the pre-existing residents absorb of the immigrant culture), many examples of things brought by the newer wave of immigration, stuff sold at NYC bodegas, K-pop, yoga are not seen as odd things coming from "foreign" lands anymore but part of the US landscape for some people.

I really don't think that today's immigration differs that much from the old. It's just that we're in the midst of it so it seems like the assimilation process hasn't finished (nor have the native-born fully become familiar with the newcomers in all parts of the country yet), but people would have said the same about past waves while they were at their peak.

I will say that I do agree when people said cultures could be more unified within one country like the US when there were more common events uniting the nation, like drafts in wartime, or common media like when there were only a few common channels on TV whose references everyone got. But whether that's a good thing is a matter of opinion. You can have diversity of cultures, media, experiences through many ways, whether it's the immigrant communities themselves bringing it, their children diversifying the local culture, or even just the native-born people developing subcultures, like the human race has always done.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
The descendants of the groups most impacted by the 1924 immigration restrictions (ie "white ethnic" Catholics) are some of Trump's biggest supporters.
Why do you think that is? Something about how immigrants themselves being proudly assimilated makes them more wanting to distinguish themselves from newer immigrants (you don't even have to go as far back as immigrants of the past few generations, since there are a small, but vocal number of immigrants even today who like to argue "we're the good/legal immigrants" and thus don't see themselves as the target of Trump's anti-immigration rhetoric)?

Or just social conservatism in general (though social conservatives didn't necessarily all like Trump based on his lived behavior) leading to voting Republican?

Though of the groups impacted by the 1924 restrictions being very pro-Trump, though, there's a clear exception -- certainly Jewish Americans with family roots from that time are the group that are the least Trump-supporting of the "white ethnics" today.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Though of the groups impacted by the 1924 restrictions being very pro-Trump, though, there's a clear exception -- certainly Jewish Americans with family roots from that time are the group that are the least Trump-supporting of the "white ethnics" today.
"Typical" American Jews (Conservative/Reform, suburbanized, secular, often highly educated and affluent) are extremely anti-Trump.

But Orthodox Jews, the fastest growing Jewish cohort, are overwhelmingly pro-Trump (though less for policy reasons and more because they vote as bloc based on leadership's preference).
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:06 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
"Typical" American Jews (Conservative/Reform, suburbanized, secular, often highly educated and affluent) are extremely anti-Trump.

But Orthodox Jews, the fastest growing Jewish cohort, are overwhelmingly pro-Trump (though less for policy reasons and more because they vote as bloc based on leadership's preference).
I have some personal experience with this its like a 75/25% split but a big portion of this I personally think is as much geographic than anything Most Jews are concentrated in NYC and Coastal California which plays a big part of that divide.

And if you go to Israel, they are generally pretty big fans of Trump.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:21 PM
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Russian Jews are also very right-wing.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
And if you go to Israel, they are generally pretty big fans of Trump.
True, but it follows similar logic. Israel in 2019 is dominated by Orthodox. Similarly, Jewish Brooklyn-Queens are now dominated by Orthodox, and are heavily pro-Trump.

The Jews of Scarsdale and Livingston (stereotypical affluent, highly educated secular Jews) are hugely anti-Trump.

Also, I don't think people realize how fast the Jewish community is changing. Around 70% of Jewish children in NYC and adjacent inner suburban counties are Orthodox, but less than 40% of adults are Orthodox.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:41 PM
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ardecila ardecila is offline
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
There are still plenty of white ethnic groups that identify with their Old World cultures, especially in places like Chicago, NYC etc. And do you, count for example, 1980s immigration from say, Eastern Europe, as "refreshing" the old Polish community? Even people with more distant immigration histories actually have ways of keeping touch with the old culture, though not everyone chooses to do so. I have met so many born-and-bred New Yorkers and Chicagoans who've been to Italy, Poland, Greece etc., and even smaller town midwestern and northeastern US cities have more people who've traveled to Europe than I had expected.
I live in Chicago, I'm aware of many families like this that maintain ties with the old country. But for most, their identity as Italians, Greeks, Poles, etc is secondary to their identity as full-fledged Americans.


Quote:
I really don't think that today's immigration differs that much from the old. It's just that we're in the midst of it so it seems like the assimilation process hasn't finished (nor have the native-born fully become familiar with the newcomers in all parts of the country yet), but people would have said the same about past waves while they were at their peak.
Mexican-Americans have been in the Southwest for centuries and the rest of the country for decades. I encounter plenty of Mexican-Americans who were born here, hold professional jobs and high incomes. Yet we still continue to see a significant fraction of Americans who are openly hostile towards all people of Mexican descent, whether they were born in America or not.

We're saying the same thing, basically. Once the tap of immigration is cut off, the presence of a certain group in the United States (be that Italians or Mexicans) eventually becomes a settled fact and the stigma around those groups fades away. When immigration is an ongoing process, native-born Americans are quick to attack the culture of the newcomers and refuse to accept them as equals.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:42 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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My dads side of the family is as Jewish as they come. They came over in the 30s to NY. Bronx then Brooklyn then of course to Miami. One of my uncles is an accountant, one is a stockbroker, and my grandpa is an accountant too, or was before he became too sick. My dad is an outlier in the family in regards to careers.

But with all that said, these very NYC Jewish guys are evenly split:
Dad is conservative
One uncle is conservative
One uncle is liberal
Grandpa is quite down the middle, I can't pinpoint his politics(something I think is usually a sign of a great man or someone who doesn't know much, I, of course, find him in the former category)

And none of them really do anything religious..so not orthodox. Of course this example is subjective and tiny, but its real and has been apart of my life.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:43 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
I live in Chicago, I'm aware of many families like this that maintain ties with the old country. But for most, their identity as Italians, Greeks, Poles, etc is secondary to their identity as full-fledged Americans.




Mexican-Americans have been in the Southwest for centuries and the rest of the country for decades. I encounter plenty of Mexican-Americans who were born here, hold professional jobs and high incomes.

We're saying the same thing, basically. Once the tap of immigration is cut off, the presence of a certain group in the United States (be that Italians or Mexicans) eventually becomes a settled fact and the stigma around those groups fades away. When immigration is an ongoing process, native-born Americans are quick to attack the culture of the newcomers and refuse to accept them as equals.
Mexican Americans have not been in the SW for centuries... Didn't Mexico only own that land for like two decades in the early 1800s? Or are you just saying Mexicans have immigrated into the country, mostly landing in the SW for centuries?
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Mexican Americans have not been in the SW for centuries... Didn't Mexico only own that land for like two decades in the early 1800s? Or are you just saying Mexicans have immigrated into the country, mostly landing in the SW for centuries?
The SW US was obviously "Mexican" for centuries before the U.S.

The people were a mestizo Spanish-speaking mix of European and Native (what we call Mexican Americans for those immigrating from modern-day Mexico). There is no difference between someone who was living in Arizona in 1600 and who is living in Chihuahua today.

Of course those that were fully Native carved out an independent culture/identity (same as those considered "indigenous" in Mexico these days). Mexicans are overwhelmingly a mix of Native American and European. Maybe 10% are "indigenous" and 5-10% are "European white".
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2019, 7:53 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The SW US was obviously "Mexican" for centuries before the U.S.

The people were a mestizo Spanish-speaking mix of European and Native (what we call Mexican Americans for those immigrating from modern-day Mexico). There is no difference between someone who was living in Arizona in 1600 and who is living in Chihuahua today.

Of course those that were fully Native carved out an independent culture/identity (same as those considered "indigenous" in Mexico these days). Mexicans are overwhelmingly a mix of Native American and European. Maybe 10% are "indigenous" and 5-10% are "European white".
Yeah I know, I have just heard that "we stole that land from Mexico" a lot. And I am sitting here wondering if that is what he meant because that line of thought always puzzled me.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
Mexican Americans have not been in the SW for centuries... Didn't Mexico only own that land for like two decades in the early 1800s? Or are you just saying Mexicans have immigrated into the country, mostly landing in the SW for centuries?
Most of the land was very sparsely settled by "Mexicans". The non-Indian population of the entire state of California in 1840 was only 8,000.

E] To put that in perspective, one of those caravans from Honduras had 10,000 people.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Most of the land was very sparsely settled by "Mexicans". The non-Indian population of the entire state of California in 1840 was only 8,000.

E] To put that in perspective, one of those caravans from Honduras had 10,000 people.
Putting aside the absurd caravan propaganda, what does the relative density of pre-American land have to do with anything?

Alaska barely has any Americans these days. Therefore, it isn't really American. Wyoming, too. Americans have no claim to it.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:40 AM
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^ I've heard the ol' "but there was barely anyone living there!" argument from Zionists talking about Palestine before it was seized by Israel, too. Must be in the imperialist handbook.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2019, 12:51 AM
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Putting aside the absurd caravan propaganda, what does the relative density of pre-American land have to do with anything?

Alaska barely has any Americans these days. Therefore, it isn't really American. Wyoming, too. Americans have no claim to it.
Every single legal citizen/resident in Alaska is American, because Alaska is an American state.

And Brooklyn in 1700 is no longer a Dutch colony and no longer a British colony.

Brooklyn is 100% American, because the British were defeated in war.

Wyoming, despite having a low population of 600,000 is [75X the non-native population of 1840 California] 100% American because of war and treaties.

Mexico lost their territories because nobody lived here and there wasn't much of a fight put forth to keep it.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2020, 4:29 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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While it's often assumed that European immigration to the US basically stopped in 1924, there was some post-war immigration from Europe after WWII, but more modest given the restrictions.

From the 1980 census in selected metros, here is some European immigrant populations that arrived after 1950 (those coming before 1950 would be mostly elderly pre-1924 immigrants so I subtracted them out).

New York

Italy 170,110
Germany 60,272
Poland 55,228
USSR 54,367
Greece 51,025
UK 48,505
Portugal 37,277
Ireland 29,767
Yugoslavia 28,929
Hungary 21,555
Spain 17,155
Romania 14,777
France 14,593
Czechoslovakia 11,106

Los Angeles

UK 42,182
Germany 30,851
USSR 19,307
Italy 11,553

Chicago

Poland 40,504
Italy 27,611
Germany 27,214
Greece 20,034
Yugoslavia 18,634
USSR 12,241
UK 11,299

Boston

Italy 21,565
Portugal 13,537
UK 9,929

Philadelphia

Italy 15,840
Germany 12,538

Detroit

Italy 10,944
Germany 10,858
UK 9,849

Last edited by Docere; Apr 3, 2020 at 6:18 AM.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2020, 6:59 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Maybe Toronto would still be smaller than Montreal, or at least have taken longer to surpass it in population?
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