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  #1  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2014, 8:17 PM
gand gand is offline
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The Condo Game - Calgary?

Came across an interesting documentary on the Toronto condo market. Has anybody else come across "The Condo Game" and how do you feel it compares to the sea of cranes above the Calgary skyline?



"The Condo Game examines the forces at play behind the fastest moving condo market in North America – Toronto - and discovers that the glittering glass hides a sea of troubles. The first startling revelation for many people will be how very much the condo market is focused on investor profit, not affordable housing. One expert even says that it’s really not a housing market but a commodities play. And that means that average Canadians, looking for a primary residence, are inadvertently joining a game for which they don’t have the rule book."

Documentary:
http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/episodes/the-condo-game

Fast Facts:
http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/features/f...the-condo-game
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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2014, 8:36 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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And that means that average Canadians, looking for a primary residence, are inadvertently joining a game for which they don’t have the rule book.
What "rule book"?

Seems sensationalist to me.

What "game" are Canadian investors "playing" that they have the "rule book"? For anything?

You invest in a company on the TSX, you are at the mercy of other investors as well. Same goes for Canadian currency itself, as well as a whole swath of things that you can choose to put your money into or not.

Educating yourself on the market conditions for a 6 figure investment is a smart thing to do, housing or otherwise.
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  #3  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2014, 12:49 AM
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Other than the fawning over Keesmaat that got tiresome and a little creepy, I couldn't find a whole lot wrong with that program.
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  #4  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 7:53 PM
suburbia suburbia is offline
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http://globalnews.ca/news/2108816/do...r-2-3m-repair/
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People living in a downtown condo building have been hit with a massive repair bill. Each of the condo owners is expected to pay an average of $45,000 for repairs on the Oliver Gardens building, located at 101 Avenue and 117 Street.
<>
Owners were given two options: pay the full amount by Sept. 1 or partake in a loan acquired by the condo corporation.

“I did the math on the loan. If I pay that extra $397 every month for 20 years, it actually turns out to be closer to $95,000,” said Lane.
<>
“Unfortunately, the Condominium Property Act sets out the ability for the board to make that determination that a special assessment has to be done. And they’ve received the notice, and there’s really no recourse for them,” said Masson.
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  #5  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 8:18 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
Not sure why this would be exclusive to condos. It has nothing to do with the type of housing, you need to do due diligence to make sure what you are buying is structurally and financially sound. It's called a home inspection, and regarding condos, there are condo documentation reviews that cover engineering studies and reserve funds.

This building in question was built in 1980. There should have been a fairly recent engineering study of the building, and a clear path to generate revenue to cover the end of life cycle for these major components. Those were missing, and now the owners need to pay up.

Here's an example with housing, and the bill is much larger. That's the thing with condos, typically the bill gets split between numerous entities so a corresponding catastrophe failure of planning such as this actually ends up being cheaper for the individual. Again, it's a case by case thing.

http://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/winnipeg-...code-1.2250027
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  #6  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 8:25 PM
suburbia suburbia is offline
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
Not sure why this would be exclusive to condos.
Perhaps you didn't read the entire article. Let me attempt to summarize the salient points:

Being powerless against a decision of the condo board on timing and on when something is considered a special assessment leaves condo owners at massive financial risk. A unique risk that is non-existent for a traditional home owner. While it might be possible, it is extremely extremely rare for a surprise bill equal to 20% of the market value of a home to surprise a home owner, and if it does, it is their own fault. In this case, $46,000 within weeks, or the choice to get a loan that equals a $95,000 payback with interest. Condo owners don't even have the ability to ensure timely maintenance if the board doesn't agree.
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  #7  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 8:30 PM
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delete

Last edited by nick.flood; Feb 5, 2016 at 6:41 PM.
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  #8  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 8:42 PM
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I liked that documentary, it definitely brings up alot of interesting points and shows that as great as condo living is there are always risks associated with condo ownership.
Though the big fear I have is the bubble nature of multi family real estate where developers seems to focus more on quantity over quality so they make their quick dollars. These things are easily overlooked by the prospective buyer (How many of us are curtain wall or window wall engineers or building envelope specialists who will pick away at the components to make sure it is properly built)

I personally try to avoid bldgs from the 1980s and prior due to their age and potential mismanagement queues where a special assessment can suddenly come in and ruin ownership. Exceptions exist of course as some bldgs that were well constructed and have an intelligent team of condo board who have actually saved away for the future. Those are the ones to buy even if they be a little more expensive.
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  #9  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2015, 9:57 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
Perhaps you didn't read the entire article. Let me attempt to summarize the salient points:

Being powerless against a decision of the condo board on timing and on when something is considered a special assessment leaves condo owners at massive financial risk. A unique risk that is non-existent for a traditional home owner. While it might be possible, it is extremely extremely rare for a surprise bill equal to 20% of the market value of a home to surprise a home owner, and if it does, it is their own fault. In this case, $46,000 within weeks, or the choice to get a loan that equals a $95,000 payback with interest. Condo owners don't even have the ability to ensure timely maintenance if the board doesn't agree.
That's the salient point for you? Interesting. With a condo, condo fees = planned maintenance, special assessment = unplanned maintenance. As a home owner, you should be keeping up with both planned and unplanned maintenance. I'm much more comfortable with a condo board that enforces that. A bit scary to think I might have neighbours like you, whose deferred maintenance could potentially materially impact my property and possessions.
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Old Posted Aug 30, 2015, 6:05 PM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
Being powerless against a decision of the condo board on timing and on when something is considered a special assessment leaves condo owners at massive financial risk.
No one is "powerless". The condo board is elected and serves on behalf of the ownership. Any owner can stand for election.

Quote:
A unique risk that is non-existent for a traditional home owner.
Home owners don't have repair bills?
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  #11  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2015, 6:33 PM
suburbia suburbia is offline
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Originally Posted by Porfiry View Post
No one is "powerless". The condo board is elected and serves on behalf of the ownership. Any owner can stand for election.
Not automatic, whereas you are the board of your own place.

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Originally Posted by Porfiry View Post
Home owners don't have repair bills?
Clearly you've not been reading all of the materials here or the details in the article. And if you think pulling a quote out of a larger post is going to pull me into some strawman argument, you're quite mistaken. As it turns out, because of condo board strong arming, preventative maintenance could not take place, and as such, a massive special assessment was required. People on this forum are missing the fact that the condo boards just as often push out preventative maintenance as many times as they do things appropriately, and on occasion do ridiculous things instead of more urgent items. At the end of the day, owning a condo (which technically is not owning too much, when you get into the details of what you actually own) leaves 90% of people layers away from decisions, and populous decisions of meeting attendees override what reasonable people may want.

Of course, all the talk has been about leaks and the like - things that come to a head. But that is not what special assessments are limited to. Special assessment imply absolutely required and you have no choice and must pay within weeks. But ff a building was totally yours, maybe you wouldn't feel the absolute requirement to replace a crappy LED light along the length of the building for a million dollars and pay for it with massive immediate debt, and instead defer for a year.

Anyway - Calgary condos in the Globe and Mail:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle23334012/
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  #12  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2015, 11:06 PM
geotag277 geotag277 is offline
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
Not automatic, whereas you are the board of your own place.



Clearly you've not been reading all of the materials here or the details in the article. And if you think pulling a quote out of a larger post is going to pull me into some strawman argument, you're quite mistaken. As it turns out, because of condo board strong arming, preventative maintenance could not take place, and as such, a massive special assessment was required. People on this forum are missing the fact that the condo boards just as often push out preventative maintenance as many times as they do things appropriately, and on occasion do ridiculous things instead of more urgent items. At the end of the day, owning a condo (which technically is not owning too much, when you get into the details of what you actually own) leaves 90% of people layers away from decisions, and populous decisions of meeting attendees override what reasonable people may want.

Of course, all the talk has been about leaks and the like - things that come to a head. But that is not what special assessments are limited to. Special assessment imply absolutely required and you have no choice and must pay within weeks. But ff a building was totally yours, maybe you wouldn't feel the absolute requirement to replace a crappy LED light along the length of the building for a million dollars and pay for it with massive immediate debt, and instead defer for a year.

Anyway - Calgary condos in the Globe and Mail:http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle23334012/
You seem to be being deliberately obtuse here. In the example of the particular case you linked too, the condo board intentionally didn't fund required maintenance items that added up to a large special assessment bill. In essence, they artificially lowered the condo fees for an extended period of time which put more money in the condo holders pockets that should have been budgeted for repairs. A financially astute owner would recognize that, understand the engineering report, and understand the reserve fund study, and budget appropriately for maintenance items that were not funded by the board.

You seem to be trying to imply there is some crazy difference between condo maintenance and home maintenance, but there isn't much. Either way you have to stay on top of the relevant maintenance and understand deeply the financials. If you don't have the money to maintenance a property, whether it be a house or a condo, you probably shouldn't buy it, and whether you buy a house or a condo, you need to understand the maintenance costs associated through home inspections, engineering reports, reserve fund studies, property history, lifecycle of major components such as foundation, roofing, boilers, etc.

Homes can have 6 figure repair bills associated with them, those are typically the ones that grab headlines. A 5 figure special assessment might be news, but a 5 figure home maintenance item wouldn't even be worth printing about. You just have to pay it. No one cares about reading a news story like that. "Bob had to replace his roof, it was expensive". That doesn't sell newspapers. "Condo has 5 figure special assessment". That article appeals to people like you, so they print it. Similarly "Leaky house requires repair" doesn't grab headlines because every tom dick and harry's house leaks. You call a roofer and get if fixed, sometimes for thousands of dollars, but no where cares because it's so common.

Does a board require payment for maintenance items on a compressed time scale? Yes, sometimes, but well run boards will warn you years in advance of reserve fund shortfalls and potential special assessments. Special assessments are rarely surprises that come out of nowhere. They will be mentioned in annual board meetings years in advance in well run condos.

If that point is so "salient" and important to you and you can't imagine having to pay for maintenance items as they come up, maybe you shouldn't buy a condo. But I would argue as a responsible property owner, if you can afford to buy a property, affording the maintenance items is part of that, doesn't matter if it's a house or condo, and the numbers aren't much different between them.
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