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  #121  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I agree there are blurry lines, but you don't see the difference between a home designed prior to the auto age, and one designed around auto usage?

When your home has an attached two-car garage, it's designed for an autocentric lifestyle. Yes, there are 19th century homes with 2 car garages, but tacked on, not dictating the flow.
"dictating the flow"?

of what?

if someone has a car parked in the back of their house off the alley, i fail to see how they would be more/less inclined to use that car based on what century the house was built in.
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  #122  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
"dictating the flow"?
of what?
The home, obviously. There were no cars when these older homes were built. Alleys were for horses and waste. Guests would always be received in the front.

Modern day homes with two car garages are generally designed around auto usage, even if in urban areas. The mudroom will flow to the parking, etc.

Of course you can have an equally autocentric lifestyle in a vintage home, but that isn't how the home was built, or how it relates to the cityscape.
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  #123  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
In the example that you posted, at least 20% of the lot is dedicated to single use case car storage. In the case of a San Francisco house built over a garage, that isn't the case.
so now it's a lot usage percentage thing?


this is a "rowhouse" because the housing is built over the parking:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7850...7i13312!8i6656


but this is a "townhouse" because it has a parking pad off the alley in back that takes up 20% of the lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8700...7i16384!8i8192



man, this just keeps getting blurrier and blurrier.
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  #124  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The home, obviously. There were no cars when these older homes were built. Alleys were for horses and waste. Guests would always be received in the front.

Modern day homes with two car garages are generally designed around auto usage, even if in urban areas. The mudroom will flow to the parking, etc.
but without seeing floor plans of the two, we can't really say how the "flow" of the contemporary rowhouse might differ from the "flow" of the 19th century rowhouse i posted.


this is getting so very ridiculously hair-splitty, hence the copious amounts of blur.
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  #125  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
so now it's a lot usage percentage thing?


this is a "rowhouse" because the housing is built over the parking:

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7850...7i13312!8i6656


but this is a "townhouse" because it has a parking pad off the alley in back that takes up 20% of the lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8700...7i16384!8i8192



man, this just keeps getting blurrier and blurrier.
The SF example is definitely a rowhouse. I think the Chicago example is rowhouse as well, because it appears to have been designed without the car in mind. The parking appears to have been a later modification.

Also, this isn't really my argument lol. I don't have strong feelings about the distinction, but am just participating based on my own perceptions.
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  #126  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The SF example is definitely a rowhouse. I think the Chicago example is rowhouse as well, because it appears to have been designed without the car in mind.
but the SF example WAS specifically built with the car in mind.

how does that not make it a "townhouse" by your own definition?




Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
am just participating based on my own perceptions.
which you are certainly entitled too.

they just don't make much sense to me, that's all.

my lone point in all of this is that the line between "rowhouse" and "townhouse" can get EXTREMELY blurry, and i believe i have sufficiently demonstrated that.

your contribution of the SF houses built on top of parking garages has only furthered that blurriness, LOL!
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 8, 2019 at 6:00 PM.
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  #127  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 6:02 PM
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I think a townhouse is just a fancier rowhouse.
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  #128  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:09 PM
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^^^^^correct....a jeopardy judge will accept either answer....
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  #129  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:13 PM
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So are these 19th century Victorian rows not actually rows because they have garages in the rear laneway?
https://goo.gl/maps/GaBzh4scavSrYKda6

But this modern development is because it has underground parking?
https://goo.gl/maps/U3SzDL7cmtzuvN8F6
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  #130  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:20 PM
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another one.



these 100+ year old attached houses are apparently "townhouses" because they have parking garages off the alley in back, and were built with such.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9052...7i16384!8i8192



but these contemporary attached houses are apparently true "rowhouses" because they are built on top of their street-facing parking garages, SF-style.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8732...7i13312!8i6656




anyone else confused yet?
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  #131  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
another one.
these century-old attached houses are apparently "townhouses" because they have parking garages off the alley in back, and were built with such.
I doubt it. They may have been horse stables, but you didn't have attached garages in those years, largely because cars frequently exploded.

Attached garages are a pretty recent thing. Not very common pre-1960's.
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  #132  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I doubt it. They may have been horse stables, but you didn't have attached garages in those years, largely because cars frequently exploded.
1st, the garages aren't attached, they are detached garages on the alley, just like the detached garages from the contemporary attached houses i initially posted on the last page. the ones that you said were "townhouses" because they had detached garages. if those are "townhouses" for that reason, then so are these.

2nd, the garages on the alley look original to me. late 19th/early 20th century chicago common brick. definitely not a '60s add-on.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9053...7i16384!8i8192
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  #133  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
1st, the garages aren't attached, they are detached garages on the alley, just like the detached garages from the contemporary attached houses i initially posted on the last page. the ones that you said were "townhouses" because they had detached garages. if those are "townhouses" for that reason, then so are these.

2nd, the garages on the alley look original to me. late 19th/early 20th century chicago common brick. definitely not a '60s add-on.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9053...7i16384!8i8192
That doesn't look like it was built as a car garage. Are you sure that it wasn't converted? The garage next to it looks new.
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  #134  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
1st, the garages aren't attached, they are detached garages on the alley, just like the detached garages from the contemporary attached houses i initially posted on the last page. the ones that you said were "townhouses" because they had detached garages. if those are "townhouses" for that reason, then so are these.

2nd, the garages on the alley look original to me. late 19th/early 20th century chicago common brick. definitely not a '60s add-on.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9053...7i16384!8i8192
I have no dog in this fight. I've never commented on the specific terminology.

My only point is that there's an obvious difference between homes built around vehicles and homes not built around vehicles. There's no way those Gold Coast garages are original. The structures may be original but they weren't built as two-car garages.

Probably carriage houses, if original. Carriage houses were often converted to parking.
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  #135  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:01 PM
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so if a detached alley garage was initially built to store horse powered personal vehicles: "rowhouse"

but if a detached alley garage was initially built to store engine powered personal vehicles: "townhouse"

and the first example is still a "rowhouse" even after it's former horse garage has been converted to store cars instead of horses and carriages.




it sounds to me like we're just back to the whole age thing.

the functional difference between these two examples below separated by more than a century is pretty minimal.

people just much prefer the 1st example because it's older, prettier, more historic, and thus deserves the special appellation "rowhouse".

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9053...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8685...7i13312!8i6656
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  #136  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I doubt it. They may have been horse stables, but you didn't have attached garages in those years, largely because cars frequently exploded.

Attached garages are a pretty recent thing. Not very common pre-1960's.
I don't even think they were horse stables. Not every city dweller in the 19th Century and earlier owned a horse.

My understanding of row houses, at least in the US, is that they were originally "working class" housing. When the industrial revolution got going, and people started moving to cities to work in factories and whatnot, these row houses served as speculative housing for those people. I thought I read somewhere that row houses could even be thought of as the first speculative housing, that is, housing built for people/the masses ready to move in, vs. houses that used to be custom made for or built by the person/people/household that wanted a dwelling. These early workers usually walked to work, or later, took the horsecar/streetcar to work. If you owned a horse (let alone more than 1 horse) in the city, you were generally well-to-do. It takes money to house and feed a horse. Horseback riding was actually uncommon back then; only cops rode horseback in cities, as well as well-to-do people for "leisure riding" on bridle paths in large parks. If you were very well-to-do, you had a carriage and carriage house.

At least this is what I've read in various books over the years.

In regards to the topic of this thread, no, I've never lived in a row house, and probably never will. And to be honest, it's not on my bucket list.
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  #137  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
I don't even think they were horse stables. Not every city dweller in the 19th Century and earlier owned a horse.

My understanding of row houses, at least in the US, is that they were originally "working class" housing. When the industrial revolution got going, and people started moving to cities to work in factories and whatnot, these row houses served as speculative housing for those people.
I think this is generally true, especially in rowhouse heavy cities like Philly and Baltimore.

But I don't think those Gold Coast homes were built for the working class. They look very high-end, and I don't think the Gold Coast was ever working class.

And rowhouse homes in NYC generally weren't built for the working class. They lived in tenements. But NYC isn't a rowhouse city, really; it's an apartment city. Even Brownstone Brooklyn has few blocks without apartment buildings.
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  #138  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 PM
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Hunts Lane in Brownstone Brooklyn- all former horse stables. Now housing, obviously:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6933...7i16384!8i8192
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  #139  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:33 PM
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I’m not sure if I consider these rowhouses or not... I mean, these are really nice, and were likely originally built as nicer housing. To me, rowhouses are the predominant type found in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, DC... small, working-class/lower middle class houses.

https://goo.gl/maps/CH8bgAMnpd2CRB3H7
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  #140  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2019, 8:35 PM
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Again, if we were going to stick to original definitions, somewhere like Elfreth's Alley in Philly has townhouses, but not rowhouses. The houses are virtually all attached on one or both sides, but they were built at different times, and vary slightly in terms of design, stories, floor height, and setback.

In contrast, these are examples of "true rows" - with groups of 2-4 houses in a row, built at the same time, to an identical plan.
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