HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > San Antonio


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 12:57 AM
jlav74 jlav74 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Wikipedia Recognizes SA-NB MSA

I was browsing around Wikipedia and noticed they finally updated the SA MSA TO SA-NB MSA according to the new 2010 MSA guidelines.

"San Antonio–New Braunfels is an eight-county metropolitan area in the South-Central region of Texas, centering in the city of San Antonio. The names Metro San Antonio and San Antonio Metro are sometimes used when referring to the MSA. As of July 1, 2008 the metropolitan area's population stood at 2,031,445, up from a reported 1,711,703 in 2000.[1]

The San Antonio–New Braunfels Metropolitan Statistical Area is the third-largest metro area in the state of Texas, after Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington and Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown. It is also the fourth-fastest growing metropolitan area in the state, after Dallas–Fort Worth, Houston, and Austin."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_San_Antonio
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 2:06 AM
oldmanshirt's Avatar
oldmanshirt oldmanshirt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SATX > KCMO > DFW
Posts: 1,170
So now that NB has become a principal city by growing over 50k people, which metro city will be the third? The only real contenders are Schertz, at around 30k and Seguin with around 26k. Schertz has a head start on population but Seguin is poised for greater future growth thanks to the Caterpillar plant and its location at the southern terminus of SH 130.

Also, I'm growing increasingly surprised that Kerrville isn't being included as a CSA. I know the commuter interchange is reasonably high, and many folks in Kerrville identify themselves as being from the SA area. The city itself is only about 25 miles from the developed edge of the metro area.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 3:22 AM
sirkingwilliam's Avatar
sirkingwilliam sirkingwilliam is offline
Loving SA 365 days a year
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 3,713
Not to be one to not take Wiki at face value... lol, but are we sure that's "official" and if it is, why? I honestly don't see the need to have that attached. I mean, Kansas City has suburbs larger than 50,000 but it remains Kansas City. Other metro's as well.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 5:41 AM
oldmanshirt's Avatar
oldmanshirt oldmanshirt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SATX > KCMO > DFW
Posts: 1,170
Its official. Page 6.

I'm not really sure why KC is named the way it is, and there are similar situations in St. Louis, Oklahoma City, and Salt Lake City. Every TX metro uses conventional naming, however, except for the DFW CSA being "Dallas-Ft. Worth" instead of "Dallas-Ft. Worth-Sherman".
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 11:51 PM
jlav74 jlav74 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanshirt View Post
So now that NB has become a principal city by growing over 50k people, which metro city will be the third? The only real contenders are Schertz, at around 30k and Seguin with around 26k. Schertz has a head start on population but Seguin is poised for greater future growth thanks to the Caterpillar plant and its location at the southern terminus of SH 130.

Also, I'm growing increasingly surprised that Kerrville isn't being included as a CSA. I know the commuter interchange is reasonably high, and many folks in Kerrville identify themselves as being from the SA area. The city itself is only about 25 miles from the developed edge of the metro area.
I'm also surpised that Kerrville isn't considered/included to form a SA-NB-Kerrville CSA or something along those lines. The commuting patterns support it as you outlined above. Maybe w/ a small glimmer of hope, the Census Bureau recognizes it and makes the appropriate update(s).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 12:02 AM
jlav74 jlav74 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirkingwilliam View Post
Not to be one to not take Wiki at face value... lol, but are we sure that's "official" and if it is, why? I honestly don't see the need to have that attached. I mean, Kansas City has suburbs larger than 50,000 but it remains Kansas City. Other metro's as well.
My guess is that most cities use a methodology utilizing the largest Suburb(s) (population-wise) being attached to the largest/principle city (i.e. Denver-Aurora-Boulder, Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, Dallas-Ft Worth-Arlington, etc.) In this case, New Braunfels is the largest suburban city in the SA Metro area. Most larger cities have tons of suburban cities w/ 50k+ in/around their metro centers, but it's possible they only identify/attach the largest ones to the priniciple city for spacing purposes. Can you imagine how many spaces population centers such as NYC and LA would take up if they listed every suburb w/ a population of 50k or more? LOL I'm just voicing my humble/logical opinion, I'm in no way, shape or form a Subject Matter Expert on the subject.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 12:21 AM
oldmanshirt's Avatar
oldmanshirt oldmanshirt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SATX > KCMO > DFW
Posts: 1,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlav74 View Post
I'm also surpised that Kerrville isn't considered/included to form a SA-NB-Kerrville CSA or something along those lines. The commuting patterns support it as you outlined above. Maybe w/ a small glimmer of hope, the Census Bureau recognizes it and makes the appropriate update(s).
I looked at the exact numbers awhile back, and I'm thinking the percentage was above the 15% needed for consensual inclusion as a CSA (i.e., if representatives of both Kerrville and SA decided to form an SA-Kville CSA), but less than the 25% needed for automatic inclusion by the OMB.

A lot of it will likely hinge on the growth of Boerne as an employment center, since its the closest town to Kerrville with an appreciable number of jobs. As a former resident, I know Kerrville itself is a pretty self-contained area despite identifying with SA on a regional level, and SA (city) is a bit too far for most people to stomach a daily commute between the two cities. If Boerne keeps growing like crazy then its likely more people will live in Kerrville and work in Boerne or vice-versa.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 11:41 PM
jlav74 jlav74 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanshirt View Post
I looked at the exact numbers awhile back, and I'm thinking the percentage was above the 15% needed for consensual inclusion as a CSA (i.e., if representatives of both Kerrville and SA decided to form an SA-Kville CSA), but less than the 25% needed for automatic inclusion by the OMB.

A lot of it will likely hinge on the growth of Boerne as an employment center, since its the closest town to Kerrville with an appreciable number of jobs. As a former resident, I know Kerrville itself is a pretty self-contained area despite identifying with SA on a regional level, and SA (city) is a bit too far for most people to stomach a daily commute between the two cities. If Boerne keeps growing like crazy then its likely more people will live in Kerrville and work in Boerne or vice-versa.
All I know is the gap that "used" to separate Boerne's city limits and SA's is increasingly shrinking at a good clip. I can definitely foresee the gap being completely enclosed within the next 5 years or less. Boerne is really starting to take on it's own identity aside from the identity of old (quiet little town on the outskirts of SA). I saw somewhere (I don't recall the source) quite sometime ago that the population was estimated to be over 10k. I'm anxiously anticipating the rollout of the 2010 population figures. I hope they're more accurate than back in 2000 when SA was grotesquely undercounted!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2010, 5:48 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago
Posts: 3,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlav74 View Post
My guess is that most cities use a methodology utilizing the largest Suburb(s) (population-wise) being attached to the largest/principle city (i.e. Denver-Aurora-Boulder, Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, Dallas-Ft Worth-Arlington, etc.) In this case, New Braunfels is the largest suburban city in the SA Metro area. Most larger cities have tons of suburban cities w/ 50k+ in/around their metro centers, but it's possible they only identify/attach the largest ones to the priniciple city for spacing purposes.
The principle cities are decided based on degree of sociopolitical independence.

I'll use both Austin and Dallas-Fort Worth as examples. The Austin metropolitan area has three principle cities: Austin, Round Rock, and San Marcos. Each of those other cities has a limited degree of sociopolitical freedom within the area, but not enough to qualify as a distinct core separate from the central urban area (I.E. Austin). If there were a substantial sociopolitical difference, Hays county would be considered the San Marcos micropolitan statistical area and would then have to be combined with Austin-Round Rock into a CSA similarly to what has been done to create the Austin-Round Rock-Marble Falls CSA.

The other example is a limited degree of sociopolitical differences greater than that of principle city classification but smaller than that of CSA components classification. This category is MSA division similar to Dallas and Fort Worth. Each city is the core of its own division, but the economic factors and media markets tie them together so substantially that it would be illogical to separate them into two distinct cores, therefore naming them core cities of the MSA and assigning them distinct MSA divisions.

A simpler way to look at this is historic downtowns... Does New Braunfels have a large historic downtown? Yes. It likely then has a degree of sociopolitical independence.

Look back at Austin for comparison. Does San Marcos have an historic downtown? Yes. Does Round Rock? Yes. Do others? Of course, but are the large enough (Georgetown - No) or independent enough (Pflugerville - No) to truly qualify as a principle city? Not quite.

As for the person who asked about the validity of this Wikipedia change? Yes, as a matter of fact, the census bureau did change the status of New Braunfels in a memo released in early December. The thread I've linked to includes alot of useful info about Austin and a link to that memo.

For what it's worth, I do believe that the Kerrville mSA and the San Antonio mSA should be consolidated into a combined statistical area.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2010, 6:05 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago
Posts: 3,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanshirt View Post
So now that NB has become a principal city by growing over 50k people, which metro city will be the third? The only real contenders are Schertz, at around 30k and Seguin with around 26k. Schertz has a head start on population but Seguin is poised for greater future growth thanks to the Caterpillar plant and its location at the southern terminus of SH 130.
In all likelihood there won't be a third principal city. Schertz doesn't have a large enough degree of independence, nor does it have any real historic communities (it is primarily a bedroom community), so that really doesn't give it a chance at being a principle city.

Seguin is really the only contender... but I wouldn't give it any more than an even chance.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2010, 9:10 PM
miaht82's Avatar
miaht82 miaht82 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: The Triangle
Posts: 1,316
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
In all likelihood there won't be a third principal city. Schertz doesn't have a large enough degree of independence, nor does it have any real historic communities (it is primarily a bedroom community), so that really doesn't give it a chance at being a principle city.

Seguin is really the only contender... but I wouldn't give it any more than an even chance.
I think Schertz is trying to have some independence from SA but you're right that it has as much dependence on SA as any suburb would have.
Schertz/Cibolo Pit/Cut Off would have historic communities if it wasn't for all of the flooding of Cibolo Creek.
__________________
The Raleigh Connoisseur
It is the city trying to escape the consequences of being a city
while still remaining a city. It is urban society trying to eat its
cake and keep it, too.
- Harlan Douglass, The Suburban Trend, 1925
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2010, 3:11 AM
Schertz1 Schertz1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 479
I believe Round Rock is fairly independent of Austin.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2010, 5:00 AM
Scottolini Scottolini is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,491
The average commute time for residents of Round Rock is over 25 minutes, so that is an indicator of a commute into Austin for a large percentage of their workforce.

http://www.usnews.com/money/best-pla...ound_rock/jobs

With that said, the latest census estimates puts Round Rock's population at over 100,000 people. It's the headquarters of Dell, and has diversified it's local economy very well. It has three hospitals, four high schools with a fifth u/c, new college campuses, outlet mall, IKEA, etc. So, it certainly has developed into a small city itself. Even so Round Rock is still a suburb, and only exists as it does today because of Austin.

Last edited by Scottolini; Jan 12, 2010 at 5:11 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2010, 8:19 AM
PartyLine PartyLine is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 506
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlav74 View Post
All I know is the gap that "used" to separate Boerne's city limits and SA's is increasingly shrinking at a good clip. I can definitely foresee the gap being completely enclosed within the next 5 years or less. Boerne is really starting to take on it's own identity aside from the identity of old (quiet little town on the outskirts of SA). I saw somewhere (I don't recall the source) quite sometime ago that the population was estimated to be over 10k. I'm anxiously anticipating the rollout of the 2010 population figures. I hope they're more accurate than back in 2000 when SA was grotesquely undercounted!

It is growing alot out around Boerne but Boerne is still a nice quaint little town isn't it about the size of Fredericksburg? my parents are looking at moving around Boerne or New Braunfels in the future.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2010, 9:18 AM
wwmiv wwmiv is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin -> San Antonio -> Columbia -> San Antonio -> Chicago
Posts: 3,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by PartyLine View Post
It is growing alot out around Boerne but Boerne is still a nice quaint little town isn't it about the size of Fredericksburg? my parents are looking at moving around Boerne or New Braunfels in the future.
Same size, yes, but Fredericksburg feels a lot bigger because of its relative independence from any large city. It is also a regional hub for many of the counties north of it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2010, 5:46 PM
kornbread kornbread is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schertz1 View Post
I believe Round Rock is fairly independent of Austin.
No, not really. Downtown Round Rock is a small city block. They're trying to develop more of a core feel, but historically there is little there. They may have grown into a nice little city, but only because Austin was next door.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2010, 8:05 PM
oldmanshirt's Avatar
oldmanshirt oldmanshirt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SATX > KCMO > DFW
Posts: 1,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
Same size, yes, but Fredericksburg feels a lot bigger because of its relative independence from any large city. It is also a regional hub for many of the counties north of it.
To me, Boerne feels bigger because there's more population in unincorporated areas surrounding the city, and because its on the outskirts of the SA urbanized area. I perceive Frederickburg as being more of an isolated small town, even if its core blocks feel "busier" than Boerne's. One thing that might explain this (in addition to FBurg's function as a tourist desitination) is that Fredericksburg lies at the intersection of two major regional arterial highways (US 87 and US 290) that carry traffic to and from SA and Austin. Outside of TX 46, which serves as a loop connecting the far northern and eastern developed nodes of the SA metro, Boerne has no major throughfares going through its downtown, and generates mostly local traffic. Considering that, Boerne's core area is still pretty impressively large and busy.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2010, 12:49 AM
Schertz1 Schertz1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by kornbread View Post
No, not really. Downtown Round Rock is a small city block. They're trying to develop more of a core feel, but historically there is little there. They may have grown into a nice little city, but only because Austin was next door.

I disagree. The size of DT has little to do with it; Killeen barely has a DT. Round Rock has grown because of Dell, not because of Austin. I will go further and say, "Austin owes much of it's growth to Dell". Williamson County is much larger than Hays County. But before Dell came along, I think It was the other way around. During the 80's, South Austin along IH35 was a high growth area, but after Dell that stopped.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2010, 3:07 AM
jlav74 jlav74 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
The principle cities are decided based on degree of sociopolitical independence.

I'll use both Austin and Dallas-Fort Worth as examples. The Austin metropolitan area has three principle cities: Austin, Round Rock, and San Marcos. Each of those other cities has a limited degree of sociopolitical freedom within the area, but not enough to qualify as a distinct core separate from the central urban area (I.E. Austin). If there were a substantial sociopolitical difference, Hays county would be considered the San Marcos micropolitan statistical area and would then have to be combined with Austin-Round Rock into a CSA similarly to what has been done to create the Austin-Round Rock-Marble Falls CSA.

The other example is a limited degree of sociopolitical differences greater than that of principle city classification but smaller than that of CSA components classification. This category is MSA division similar to Dallas and Fort Worth. Each city is the core of its own division, but the economic factors and media markets tie them together so substantially that it would be illogical to separate them into two distinct cores, therefore naming them core cities of the MSA and assigning them distinct MSA divisions.

A simpler way to look at this is historic downtowns... Does New Braunfels have a large historic downtown? Yes. It likely then has a degree of sociopolitical independence.

Look back at Austin for comparison. Does San Marcos have an historic downtown? Yes. Does Round Rock? Yes. Do others? Of course, but are the large enough (Georgetown - No) or independent enough (Pflugerville - No) to truly qualify as a principle city? Not quite.

As for the person who asked about the validity of this Wikipedia change? Yes, as a matter of fact, the census bureau did change the status of New Braunfels in a memo released in early December. The thread I've linked to includes alot of useful info about Austin and a link to that memo.

For what it's worth, I do believe that the Kerrville mSA and the San Antonio mSA should be consolidated into a combined statistical area.
Agreed and well put! :-)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2010, 5:25 AM
oldmanshirt's Avatar
oldmanshirt oldmanshirt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SATX > KCMO > DFW
Posts: 1,170
Here's how the Office of Management and Budget defines and determines what is a principal city (page 3, paragraph 1).

"In addition to identifying the more significant places in each Metropolitan and Micropolitan Statistical Area or NECTA in terms of population and employment, principal cities also are used in titling Metropolitan and Micropolitan Statistical Areas, Metropolitan Divisions, Combined Statistical Areas, NETCAs, NECTA Divisions, and Combined NECTAs."

In addition to being above 50,000 in population, a principal city should be a major job center within the statistical area. As for Schertz not qualifying due to its status as a "bedroom" community, while that may be true at a superficial level, there is a significant amount of commercial development within the city, most notably the Tri-County Business Park, which has seen significant expansion over the past few years. Since Schertz would have to see a 60% increase in population to qualify as a principal city on the basis of population, its not hard to see it becoming even more of a jobs center by that point. Now, if Seguin also had 50,000 people by that point, the edge would probably go to that city not just because of its larger, older core area, but because of the jobs that represents: the university, Caterpillar, and Seguin's function as a county seat.

This also makes it easy to see how San Marcos would be chosen as a principal city over Cedar Park, given SM's status as a county seat, the home of a state university, and the location of a very large outlet mall. I'd think this also gives it the edge over Georgetown, which is also a county seat.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Texas & Southcentral > San Antonio
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 7:42 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.