Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[zalf]

Do we know that it isn't? BRT rather than LRT, I know, but I thought centre-running transitways were going to be used for much of the new BRT network.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

People commandeering and living in bus shelters, anyone wanting to riding the bus for free and usually high or drunk and some wonder why ridership is down?!

Truth, but the politicians just brush it off. Instead they'll waste $50,000 on an advertising campaign.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Kinguni

Truth, but the politicians just brush it off. Instead they'll waste $50,000 on an advertising campaign.

Yup, easier to ignore the problems or blame another level of govt. as the chicken shit city clowncil and dopey mayor deflect.

Wife took the bus for years and she said every ride there were unruly, intoxicated people on the last few years before Covid. Let people ride for free said dopey no balls Bowman, what could go wrong!

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

Why has getting rid of two lanes on Portage and building a massive LRT line down the center never been put on the table? The fact that Winnipeg is still dragging their feet on this issue and standing around while every other city over 500k is building a modern transit system is an embarrassment.

They plan to make Portage Avenue and Main St North of Portage run BRT down the centre.



Here's the rest of the rapid transit plan for reference.



One thing to note though is that the dashed lines are just where the line runs and are not dedicated infrastructure. Here's what just the dedicated infrastructure looks like.



Just estimating here but that's about 33km of dedicated rapid transit infrastructure (13km for Portage, 11.2km from Marion to Fernbank, 6km from Higgins to KP, and 2.5km for U of M to St. Vital) and 21 or so km of transit priority that will only cost about $1.1 billion. For 54km that would make the cost $20 million/km. If we were just calculated the dedicated infrastructure that would be $33 million/km. In the world of transit this cost/km is remarkably cheap and will guarantee that the transit lines will be profitable.

How does this compare to our contemporary Canadian counterparts that are building LRT you say? Great question because Hamilton and Quebec are going the LRT route. These are our 2 closest Canadian metros in terms of population and Hamilton is going to be constructing a 14km LRT costing a nonsensical $3.4 billion or $242 million/km and the feds are providing $1.7 billion in funding. The Quebec LRT is a bit more reasonable as it is 23km but still costs $3 billion or $130 million/km and will receive $1.2 billion in funding from the federal government. Even the Valley line Southeast Extension in Edmonton will be 13km and cost $1.8B or $138 million/km. Even the Southwest Transitway that was 11.2 costed about $560 million or exactly $50 million/km.

Essentially cities that are the same size as us but are arguably less prominent in the national stage (barring Edmonton) are receiving funding from the federal government that is equivalent to the cost of our whole rapid transit project. If we were to get equivalent funding we could probably make the Grant line and the St. Mary's line fully separated with change to spare for McPhillips and Henderson.

My final point is why would we need to incur additional costs for purchasing trains, building rail lines, and cables for the LRT when all it would take for a BRT is to repurpose the road by adding a small curb between busses and vehicles? not to mention we get our busses from New Flyer who are not only headquartered here but manufacture their busses here. That means a lot of the money invested in BRT expansion will stay in Winnipeg and jobs will be created within the province outside of whatever jobs are needed for the construction of this project. Not to mention just how much we would save from transportation costs would make this the ideal move.

I understand that LRT might induce more demand, but viewing the current transit-oriented developments throughout the city I can say the Southwest Transitway more then gets the job done. If I have to be honest Winnipeg might have actually devised one of the most economically feasible rapid transit plans I have ever seen.

Do you truly believe an LRT would be better for the city?

On a side note, nothing is gonna happen until at least the election is over this year.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Yup, easier to ignore the problems or blame another level of govt. as the chicken shit city clowncil and dopey mayor deflect.

Wife took the bus for years and she said every ride there were unruly, intoxicated people on the last few years before Covid. Let people ride for free said dopey no balls Bowman, what could go wrong!

I’ve been riding the bus quite a bit this year and for a lot of my life. I have not encountered any “unruly, intoxicated people” ever. My dad is a bus driver and the worst thing he would generally deal with is people not paying their fares. No altercations in his 20 year career but surely your wife’s anecdotal evidence must paint a complete picture of what goes on in the bus.

It’s nonsense like this that puts a bad picture on transit. Sure there’s many improvements that could be had but let’s not act as if transit is the bane of this city’s existence. The vast majority of people that rely/use this service do not pose any of those vile characteristics you previously mentioned.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I’ve been riding the bus quite a bit this year and for a lot of my life. I have not encountered any “unruly, intoxicated people” ever. My dad is a bus driver and the worst thing he would generally deal with is people not paying their fares. No altercations in his 20 year career but surely your wife’s anecdotal evidence must paint a complete picture of what goes on in the bus.

It’s nonsense like this that puts a bad picture on transit. Sure there’s many improvements that could be had but let’s not act as if transit is the bane of this city’s existence. The vast majority of people that rely/use this service do not pose any of those vile characteristics you previously mentioned.

What every heated bus shelter inhabited by the homeless, numerous bus drivers assaulted, continual fights, drunks and stoned out individuals, don’t know what bus route you have been taking to never encounter this but it isn’t the norm!

I do know a lot of bus drivers turn a blind eye to it and are just glad to get through there shift safely but c’mon man get real!

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

What every heated bus shelter inhabited by the homeless, numerous bus drivers assaulted, continual fights, drunks and stoned out individuals, don’t know what bus route you have been taking to never encounter this but it isn’t the norm!

I do know a lot of bus drivers turn a blind eye to it and are just glad to get through there shift safely but c’mon man get real!

Firstly, there are a lot of bus shelters that are not occupied by anyone. Most of my bussing is done to U of M but even the Transitway doesn’t have many homeless people from what I see. It’s certainly a problem in downtown but quite exaggerated to say what happens in downtown also holds true for other parts of the city don't u think?

There’s also a difference between turning a blind eye and not actually experience it. There’s a reason every fight or assault gets reported by the news because it’s quite rare.

The majority of bus ridership comes from Indigenous people, Uni students, Visible minorities, and lower income individuals. If you want to apply these stereotypes to otherwise working class residents and students who just need to get from point A - point b without having to deal with all the costs associated with a car then that says a lot of what type of person you are.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

My final point is why would we need to incur additional costs for purchasing trains, building rail lines, and cables for the LRT when all it would take for a BRT is to repurpose the road by adding a small curb between busses and vehicles?

Excellent post all round!

Under costs I would add the cost of breakdowns/servicing when an LRT train goes down. Being a more expensive piece of equipment, repairs and maintenance are going to be more expensive than busses. If a bus breaks down on a BRT road, you tow the bus and put on another. If an LRT train breaks down on a track how long does it take to move the train and find another for that Line? What is the cost of closing a rapid transit line for an extended period of time? The short and long term cost of LRT is, IMO, way out of proportion to the temporary boost in ridership it would achieve while the system is new.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

They plan to make Portage Avenue and Main St North of Portage run BRT down the centre.



Here's the rest of the rapid transit plan for reference.



One thing to note though is that the dashed lines are just where the line runs and are not dedicated infrastructure. Here's what just the dedicated infrastructure looks like.



Just estimating here but that's about 33km of dedicated rapid transit infrastructure (13km for Portage, 11.2km from Marion to Fernbank, 6km from Higgins to KP, and 2.5km for U of M to St. Vital) and 21 or so km of transit priority that will only cost about $1.1 billion. For 54km that would make the cost $20 million/km. If we were just calculated the dedicated infrastructure that would be $33 million/km. In the world of transit this cost/km is remarkably cheap and will guarantee that the transit lines will be profitable.

How does this compare to our contemporary Canadian counterparts that are building LRT you say? Great question because Hamilton and Quebec are going the LRT route. These are our 2 closest Canadian metros in terms of population and Hamilton is going to be constructing a 14km LRT costing a nonsensical $3.4 billion or $242 million/km and the feds are providing $1.7 billion in funding. The Quebec LRT is a bit more reasonable as it is 23km but still costs $3 billion or $130 million/km and will receive $1.2 billion in funding from the federal government. Even the Valley line Southeast Extension in Edmonton will be 13km and cost $1.8B or $138 million/km. Even the Southwest Transitway that was 11.2 costed about $560 million or exactly $50 million/km.

Essentially cities that are the same size as us but are arguably less prominent in the national stage (barring Edmonton) are receiving funding from the federal government that is equivalent to the cost of our whole rapid transit project. If we were to get equivalent funding we could probably make the Grant line and the St. Mary's line fully separated with change to spare for McPhillips and Henderson.

My final point is why would we need to incur additional costs for purchasing trains, building rail lines, and cables for the LRT when all it would take for a BRT is to repurpose the road by adding a small curb between busses and vehicles? not to mention we get our busses from New Flyer who are not only headquartered here but manufacture their busses here. That means a lot of the money invested in BRT expansion will stay in Winnipeg and jobs will be created within the province outside of whatever jobs are needed for the construction of this project. Not to mention just how much we would save from transportation costs would make this the ideal move.

I understand that LRT might induce more demand, but viewing the current transit-oriented developments throughout the city I can say the Southwest Transitway more then gets the job done. If I have to be honest Winnipeg might have actually devised one of the most economically feasible rapid transit plans I have ever seen.

Do you truly believe an LRT would be better for the city?

On a side note, nothing is gonna happen until at least the election is over this year.

Wow! Thank you for taking the time to write this response! I am admittedly not a fan of BRT for purely selfish reasons. This is completely anecdotal, but a lot of my friends who live in global cities use public transit because it's cool and trendy. BRT is neither of those. From a purely utilitarian standpoint it seems fine, but Winnipeg needs something sexy to help people embrace urbanism. Just my opinion. Again, thank you for the response.

[oaktom]

hopefully in future it could look like this

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Firstly, there are a lot of bus shelters that are not occupied by anyone. Most of my bussing is done to U of M but even the Transitway doesn’t have many homeless people from what I see. It’s certainly a problem in downtown but quite exaggerated to say what happens in downtown also holds true for other parts of the city don't u think?

There’s also a difference between turning a blind eye and not actually experience it. There’s a reason every fight or assault gets reported by the news because it’s quite rare

You are correct. The BRT doesn't have a lot of shelter dwellers or problem passengers. It's not representative of the rest of the city.

Most of the fights and assaults do not get reported. 1 is too many but there are several a week. One problem is that the only people who can deal with it are the police. All of the inspectors they added for "safety" can't do a thing. Can't touch, apprehend, ticket or remove. If your dad is a bus driver he's either not telling you the whole story or is lucky enough to sign routes that avoid the problem areas.

People who can are avoiding the bus due to implied safety issues and inability to shelter in inclement weather. All it takes is one experience with a group of intoxicated individuals.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

I do know a lot of bus drivers turn a blind eye to it and are just glad to get through there shift safely but c’mon man get real!

We have to turn a blind eye to it. It's policy. If there is a problem on the bus control centre is called and it's hit of miss if the problem is attended to before the problems exit the bus.

[Glenn99]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Firstly, there are a lot of bus shelters that are not occupied by anyone. Most of my bussing is done to U of M but even the Transitway doesn’t have many homeless people from what I see. It’s certainly a problem in downtown but quite exaggerated to say what happens in downtown also holds true for other parts of the city don't u think?

There’s also a difference between turning a blind eye and not actually experience it. There’s a reason every fight or assault gets reported by the news because it’s quite rare.

The majority of bus ridership comes from Indigenous people, Uni students, Visible minorities, and lower income individuals. If you want to apply these stereotypes to otherwise working class residents and students who just need to get from point A - point b without having to deal with all the costs associated with a car then that says a lot of what type of person you are.

The 2 stops on Southpark just before Pembina had people sleeping in them on Saturday morning.

[BuildUpWpg]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I’ve been riding the bus quite a bit this year and for a lot of my life. I have not encountered any “unruly, intoxicated people” ever. My dad is a bus driver and the worst thing he would generally deal with is people not paying their fares. No altercations in his 20 year career but surely your wife’s anecdotal evidence must paint a complete picture of what goes on in the bus.

It’s nonsense like this that puts a bad picture on transit. Sure there’s many improvements that could be had but let’s not act as if transit is the bane of this city’s existence. The vast majority of people that rely/use this service do not pose any of those vile characteristics you previously mentioned.

Yep, same here...35 years of transit riding (albiet not during the pandemic because I'm working from home) and I don't recall anything scary happening on any bus I was on.

[GreyGarden]

In fairness, I think the fears around riding transit are greatly exaggerated, but I did have something stolen right out of my hands on a bus in the autumn. Its not an infrequent occurrence that there are visibly intoxicated people riding the bus, but for the most part in the winter I find they seem to be just trying to escape the cold and don't pose a problem. However, I always worry for the bus driver when they have to switch to 'Not in Service' and ask the person to get off. I suppose they could always call the police if they felt the situation was unsafe. So in the over 1000 transit rides I've taken on Winnipeg transit, I've only experienced one incident that directly posed a safety risk to myself - which is too many - but on paper is pretty insignificant. Regarding the bus shelters, I don't know what the answer is frankly. If there is someone sleeping in there (which there is sometimes outside the Hydro building which is the stop I catch to go home on), I won't go in. We're talking about LRT and rapid transit, but honestly, as someone who rides everyday, I'd be happy with slightly better frequency on inner city routes and for the City or Transit to replace windows on shelters when they're smashed and to clean up the garbage. I swear the bus stop on Sherbrook outside of the Tallest Poppy hasn't been cleaned all winter.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by BuildUpWpg

Yep, same here...35 years of transit riding (albiet not during the pandemic because I'm working from home) and I don't recall anything scary happening on any bus I was on.

It's gotten worse during the pandemic.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

In fairness, I think the fears around riding transit are greatly exaggerated, but I did have something stolen right out of my hands on a bus in the autumn. Its not an infrequent occurrence that there are visibly intoxicated people riding the bus, but for the most part in the winter I find they seem to be just trying to escape the cold and don't pose a problem. However, I always worry for the bus driver when they have to switch to 'Not in Service' and ask the person to get off. I suppose they could always call the police if they felt the situation was unsafe. So in the over 1000 transit rides I've taken on Winnipeg transit, I've only experienced one incident that directly posed a safety risk to myself - which is too many - but on paper is pretty insignificant. Regarding the bus shelters, I don't know what the answer is frankly. If there is someone sleeping in there (which there is sometimes outside the Hydro building which is the stop I catch to go home on), I won't go in. We're talking about LRT and rapid transit, but honestly, as someone who rides everyday, I'd be happy with slightly better frequency on inner city routes and for the City or Transit to replace windows on shelters when they're smashed and to clean up the garbage. I swear the bus stop on Sherbrook outside of the Tallest Poppy hasn't been cleaned all winter.

They do clean it out but it doesn't take long for them to fill it up again. Transit comes in with a front end loader and dump truck.

[thebasketballgeek]

Moving on I wanted to talk about my experience riding the Blue line to watch the Jets game yesterday.

I got to Chancellor station at 6:05 pm and the bus came at 6:08. I managed to get to downtown at 6:28 right on Donald/Graham. It only took my 20 minutes to go from the third last stop in the station to the arena. It allowed me to not have to pay for parking and overall was much cheaper and more convenient then driving to the arena. Then after the game as soon a I left the building there was another Blue Line bus waiting at Smith/Graham completely beating out traffic and taking me to the Chancellor station in 16 minutes.


I’m not sure why more people don’t use the blue line to get to Jets games? Imo It’s a 10x better experience then driving through downtown during a Jets game and being stuck in traffic while paying $10-$20 in parking.

I can’t believe I’m saying this but for sports events transit is more economical, more convenient, and if you care about that sort of thing more sustainable.

The ride itself was quite comfortable and the constant flow made it feel much shorter then having to stop which is one of the positives about the dogleg. Overall I give it a 10/10 rating it completely blew my expectations out of the water. Or maybe I’m just not used to good public transit lol.

[Kinguni]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I’m not sure why more people don’t use the blue line to get to Jets games? Imo I t’s a 10x better experience then driving through downtown during a Jets game and being stuck in traffic while paying $10-$20 in parking.

I can’t believe I’m saying this but for sports events transit is more economical, more convenient, and if you care about that sort of thing more sustainable.

Parking at Seel or Clarence Stations are free as well. Park and ride. We went to one Bomber game last year and riding the Blue was perfect, although working for Transit I used the Transit lot by Fort Rouge Station as it was more convenient for us. I'd do the same if we went to a Jets game.

[zalf]

One improvement I'd like to see along the Blue Line is for the businesses near to Plaza Station to reorient to face the BRT station and AT route. Stone Angel Brewing already has done, but it's awkward and circuitous to get there by foot or bike. Access is fenced off, so you're forced to slog through the parking lot and go around that mechanic's garage to access any of the other businesses.

I'm not sure there's much the City or Transit can directly do, though. Rebuilding Plaza Drive west of Pembina to be more AT friendly would be one thing (the street is in horrible condition right now). Maybe talking with the landlord to encourage removing the fence and connect a path up to it?