Making Manitoba a "Have Province"

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by ScottFromCalgary

Alberta has more to gain though since we can achieve a surplus of nearly $10 Billion through conservative fiscal management. It is much easier for a province that can only achieve a surplus of $50 or $100 Million to say "screw it" and spend themselves into a deficit of $50 or $100 Million and collect the equalization payments. It's like your boss coming to you and saying "Hey if you don't save any money this month and want to run up your credit cards a little, I'll give you a raise".

Man, you nailed it right on the head with "conservative fiscal management"; something that has been lacking in Manitoba for a long time.

[ScottFromCalgary]

Thanks - I've gotten some practice from continually having this argument with a Liberal friend from Ontario.

[flatlander]

Originally Posted by Albertaboy

Man, you nailed it right on the head with "conservative fiscal management"; something that has been lacking in Manitoba for a long time.

Wouldn't the NDP have to run a deficit to be called fiscally irresponsible? Having higher tax and spend policies isn't necessarily irresponsible, it's just a different policy position. You can disagree with it, but it isn't irresponsible.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by ScottFromCalgary

Alberta has more to gain though since we can achieve a surplus of nearly $10 Billion through conservative fiscal management. It is much easier for a province that can only achieve a surplus of $50 or $100 Million to say "screw it" and spend themselves into a deficit of $50 or $100 Million and collect the equalization payments. It's like your boss coming to you and saying "Hey if you don't save any money this month and want to run up your credit cards a little, I'll give you a raise".

This is worth printing and putting on a poster in the legislature.

Best post I've read on these forums. It's not as though this was something I was unaware of. Quite the contrary. However, you explained it very well.

Just my opinion of course...

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by ScottFromCalgary

Alberta has more to gain though since we can achieve a surplus of nearly $10 Billion through conservative fiscal management.

Alberta does not have a surplus due to conservative fiscal managment, it's because of that three letter word.. OIL.

Even the right wing Canadian Tax Payers Federation agrees, Alberta is a big spender in this Feb 2006 article:

The Fraser Institute recently released their Fiscal Performance Index for 2006. While Alberta continues to rank number one in the country in taxes and debt (or the lack thereof as the case may be), it has slipped from second place last year to eighth place this year when it comes to government spending. This is in no small part due to the exponential increase in government spending.

Alberta government program spending has increased by 113% over the past decade. Alberta is experiencing the same problem it faced when Premier Klein took over the reigns from Don Getty in 1992 – Alberta does not have a revenue problem, it has a spending problem. This spending problem has only become more serious now that Alberta is debt-free. In 2004-05 program spending increased by 11.9% over 2003-04, and has again increased this fiscal year by an additional 12.4% over 2004-05. In total, government program expenditures have increased by nearly 26% in just two years!

[ScottFromCalgary]

Originally Posted by flatlander

Wouldn't the NDP have to run a deficit to be called fiscally irresponsible? Having higher tax and spend policies isn't necessarily irresponsible, it's just a different policy position. You can disagree with it, but it isn't irresponsible.

I didn't say it was irresponsible, just not "conservative fiscal management". If the people of Saskatchewan prefer high taxes and high spending, that is fine, they may pursue that strategy all they want. I think it is a really poor idea, but that is of course just my personal opinion.

[ScottFromCalgary]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Alberta does not have a surplus due to conservative fiscal managment, it's because of that three letter word.. OIL.

Even the right wing Canadian Tax Payers Federation agrees, Alberta is a big spender in this Feb 2006 article:

It's true, Ralph really became a sucker for every cause that walked through the door over the last few years. The huge increases in spending have been quite troubling, especially the $1.4 Billion it took to mail out the "prosperity bonuses". In his defense, Alberta is experiencing growth like we have never seen before, and it would have been difficult to predict the massive infrastructure needs that we would have. Now that we are playing catch-up, we must compete with multi-national oil companies for every worker and bag of cement, which is driving up construction costs by something like 50% a year.

[ScottFromCalgary]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Alberta does not have a surplus due to conservative fiscal managment, it's because of that three letter word.. OIL.

Sorry, one more minor note. Alberta is actually reliant on natural gas for close to 75% of our royalty revenues. Oil is still only ~25%.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by zoomer

Alberta does not have a surplus due to conservative fiscal managment, it's because of that three letter word.. OIL.

Incorrect, and I wish people from outside of this province would do some research before spouting off on another "you're nothing without oil" rant.

Remember those record budget surpluses last year? Remember those insane Ralph Bucks? Economists ran the numbers. If Klein hadn't worked on eliminating the provincial deficit, and paying down the provincial debt in the 90s, there would have been NO surplus. No Ralph Bucks, no extra infrastructure money, nothing. All that with $75 oil. Every last dollar sucked up by a budget deficit and debt financing.

Oil (although as already pointed out it's moreso natural gas) definitely fuels this economy, just as <<pick whatever is appropriate>> fuels <<insert province here>>'s economy. Duh, that's called revenue. Money doesn't grow on trees, and every province has SOMETHING that brings it in.

The difference is, in Alberta it's not wasted. At least, for now.

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Albertaboy

Speaking on a Winnipeg example, the only mayor to my knowledge that had any true vision for the city was Stephen Juba; Man was he passionate about Winnipeg! He had a very ambitious rapid transit plan for the city back in the 60's; so sad it never came true. We need more people like him in both civic and provincial politics.

He also left Winnipeg with a massive debt. .... which won't be paid off until 2017.

Perhaps after paying off those Juba government mega-projects Winnipeg can seriously look at something like rapid transit.

Its very easy to run up massive debts and cripple an economy for decades... its a totally different thing to biuld an economy into a powerhouse.

I think people here confuse spending massive wads of government cash with good government.. it must be in the water or something. Winnipegers love BIG government.

[newflyer]

Hey ScottFromCalgary ... cool Gordon Gekko avatar!!

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Incorrect, and I wish people from outside of this province would do some research before spouting off on another "you're nothing without oil" rant.

Remember those record budget surpluses last year? Remember those insane Ralph Bucks? Economists ran the numbers. If Klein hadn't worked on eliminating the provincial deficit, and paying down the provincial debt in the 90s, there would have been NO surplus. No Ralph Bucks, no extra infrastructure money, nothing. All that with $75 oil. Every last dollar sucked up by a budget deficit and debt financing.

Oil (although as already pointed out it's moreso natural gas) definitely fuels this economy, just as <<pick whatever is appropriate>> fuels <<insert province here>>'s economy. Duh, that's called revenue. Money doesn't grow on trees, and every province has SOMETHING that brings it in.

The difference is, in Alberta it's not wasted. At least, for now.

I have done the research before (you know the internet does exist outside of Alberta), and you didn't address the fact that many pundits/economists state that Alberta's spending has increased incredibly, and Alberta is not the only province facing increased infrastructure costs, etc. Yes, every province has something that brings revenue in, but no province receives anywhere near the income that Alberta does from it's natural resources. Is the incredible wealth in the middle east due to conservative fiscal management, or oil!? (Oil, especially in Alberta's case being shorthand for oil, natural gas. Afterall, people say Oil Rich Alberta, not Oil and Gas Rich Alberta!)

What about Norway?

Norway looks set to log another huge state budget surplus this year amounting to NOK 270 billion (about USD 38 billion). The windfall, fuelled by high oil prices, marks another record and further pumps up the country's oil fund, which acts like a national savings account.

Around a third of every krone rolling into the state treasury is now being stashed into the so-called "state oil fund." Since its creation in the 1990s, the fund aims to set aside a solid portion of the country's oil revenues for future generations.

The fund started with an initial deposit of NOK 2 billion in 1995. Today its assets have reached dizzying levels, now around NOK 1,300 billion, and that in turn is invested and generating more income as well.

This year's budget surplus stems from government expectations that Norway would get around NOK 300 per barrel for its oil. Steadily rising prices mean the country is instead getting much more than that, as much as NOK 400 per barrel at current levels.

That means a windfall for Norway, and the country's budget surplus is now believed to lag only that of Kuwait's.

Now, don't tell me Manitoba' economy can bring in as much government revenue as oil!!



And all is not lost in Manitoba:

PROVINCE LEADS NATIONAL ECONOMY ON SEVERAL FRONTS, ACCORDING TO YEAR-END STATS
– – –
GDP, Manufacturing, Construction Work Above National Average, Job Growth Continues: Selinger

Manitoba’s economy continued strong growth in 2006, leading the national economy on many fronts, Finance Minister Greg Selinger announced today.

“Our economy is strong and despite the high Canadian dollar, impressive gains have been made in the manufacturing sector,” said Selinger. “Construction work, total exports and capital investment are also leading the country.”

According to year-end statistics Manitoba is leading the country in the following economic performance indicators:
· Manufacturing capital investment is up 60.8 per cent, compared to 3.4 per cent nationally. In the last 12 months, the number of jobs increased by 3,100 in this sector or 4.7 per cent.
· Construction work increased 24.1 per cent, compared to seven per cent nationally.
· Total exports increased 15.1 per cent, compared to 1.6 per cent nationally.
· Capital investment is up 14.6 per cent, compared to 6.1 per cent nationally.

Economic forecasts have set Manitoba’s gross domestic product (GDP) growth in 2006 at
3.1 per cent, above the Canadian rate of 2.8 per cent.

Selinger also noted that an average of 6,700 more jobs were created in 2006 compared to 2005. Of the jobs created, more than 80 per cent have been private sector jobs. Over the last seven years, Manitoba’s full-time employment has grown by an annual average of 5,140 jobs. This is a 135 per cent improvement over the period of 1990 to 1999 when it was only 2,190 jobs. In December, Manitoba’s unemployment rate also went down to 4.1 per cent, third best in the country.

“We’ve had strong economic growth this year and we expect the economy to continue to be strong in 2007,” said Selinger, who noted the GDP is expected to be above the national average in 2007.

No, I'm not saying Alberta is nothing without oil, I'm just saying it would be another prairie province. Also, let's stop beating up on Manitoba, yes, like Alberta it could definitely be doing some things better, but I like to think that it's headed in the right direction.

Go Jets Go!

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

NDP governments can have direction. The Manitoban NDP party is running the province into the ground.

.... NDP governments ALL suck....

lets count the ways...

killed Ontario's economy ...
killed B.C's economy...
crippled the already weak Manitoba economy...
kept free enterprise from occuring in any meaningful way in Saskatchewan.. I can only imagine how great Saskatchewan would be if it were a part of the modern economic world... instead of inforced government monopolies and very weak economic policies.

I would agree the NDP has run Manitoba into the ground.. but thats par for the course in any NDP government.

The problem is big taxes anti-business policies destroy economies.. period.
That is what the NDP stand for..

If Manitoba could ditch the NDP it would take a big step in the right direction.

[Greco Roman]

Originally Posted by newflyer

He also left Winnipeg with a massive debt. .... which won't be paid off until 2017.

Perhaps after paying off those Juba government mega-projects Winnipeg can seriously look at something like rapid transit.

Its very easy to run up massive debts and cripple an economy for decades... its a totally different thing to biuld an economy into a powerhouse.

I think people here confuse spending massive wads of government cash with good government.. it must be in the water or something. Winnipegers love BIG government.

Then what? IMO, he was as close to the best as they get. So if he wasn't good enough, is there anyone who is qualified to run Manitoba? According to most, we haven't had any real leaders in the province (or city). Is there any hope?????????????????????????????????????


ARE WE DOOMED??????????????? (hope you note my sarcasm)

[zoomer]

Manitoba Oil Revenue for 2005: $13.6 million

Alberta 2005-2006 non-renewable energy royalty revenue: $14.347 billion.


14,137,000,000 vs
----13,600,000

Hmm...perhaps the real story here is how incredibly well Manitoba is doing without all that non-renewable energy royalty revenue!

[ScottFromCalgary]

Originally Posted by zoomer

No, I'm not saying Alberta is nothing without oil, I'm just saying it would be another prairie province.

But there is still the implication by people outside of Alberta that we don't deserve what we have, as though we simply won the lottery. Should Quebec be faulted for having the ability to produce massive amounts of hydroelectricity, or Ontario for their access to the Great Lakes and major American ports?

[zoomer]

I agree Scott, that of course a province should take full advantage of it's natural resources, or advantages due to geographic location. I have no problem with Alberta's oil wealth, or that Ontario is the manufacturing capital of Canada, etc, etc, as in the end it benefits all of Canada. What I do have a problem with is the attitude of some people who criticize provinces such as Manitoba, and make a direct comparison to Alberta. Of course all governments, left, middle or right can and should be criticized, and I am in no way defending the NDP in Manitoba, but let's look at the facts first.

Alberta has 14 billion more dollars in oil revenue..of course their tax rates can be lower and the budget far rosier!! Manitoba's total expected revenue from all sources including taxation, transfer payments, etc. for 2006/2007 is only 8.65 billion dollars! Imagine if they could add another 14 billion on top of that! (although they would then lose transfer payments).

Yes, Albertans have worked hard to take full advantage of their natural resources, and they should not be begrudged for that, but neither should we belittle Manitoba which is doing not too badly (and of course like all provinces they can do better) all things considered.

[ScottFromCalgary]

Agreed.

[psych1]

Originally Posted by newflyer

.... NDP governments ALL suck....

lets count the ways...

killed Ontario's economy ...
killed B.C's economy...
crippled the already weak Manitoba economy...
kept free enterprise from occuring in any meaningful way in Saskatchewan.. I can only imagine how great Saskatchewan would be if it were a part of the modern economic world... instead of inforced government monopolies and very weak economic policies.

I would agree the NDP has run Manitoba into the ground.. but thats par for the course in any NDP government.

The problem is big taxes anti-business policies destroy economies.. period.
That is what the NDP stand for..

If Manitoba could ditch the NDP it would take a big step in the right direction.

Is there anybody in Calgary who is not a raving neocon? It seems like you guys have noone to argue politics with there cause you all believe the same thing, so you have to seek out people in other provinces through the internet who you can spew your strawman arguments at?

[psych1]

Originally Posted by ScottFromCalgary

But there is still the implication by people outside of Alberta that we don't deserve what we have, as though we simply won the lottery. Should Quebec be faulted for having the ability to produce massive amounts of hydroelectricity, or Ontario for their access to the Great Lakes and major American ports?

Yes if you win the lottery, you deserve the money but just because you win the lottery doesn't mean you can tell all your neighbors what color to paint their houses. It also doesn't mean you can change all of the rules you agreed to (ie. healthcare, federal taxation etc.) before you won the lottery and it doesn't mean you should pretend that you won the lottery through hard work. Winning the lottery doesn't warrant scorn, but arrogance does.