Sidewalks of Calgary

[bt04ku]

Well it is noticeably narrower than the CRV so should we just call it 1.6m wide or should we break out the camera and measuring tape?

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Here is the excessively wide portion of 2nd Street between 11th and 10th Ave looking south. Lightly used by cars, heavily used by bicycles. Notice the 1m sidewalk on either side. Traffic light poles, no-parking signs and other obstacles are abound, all in the name to give parked cars more space. The signal post at the NE corner of 11th Ave is directly in the middle of the pedestrian ROW, effectively cutting a ~1m width into 2 section of 40cm or so.



This is what bothers me most: no one has to give up space on here. There is only 2 lanes of traffic and no turn lanes. You can fit a 2 x 3m auto lanes, 2 x 1-1.5m bike lanes and 2 lanes of parking and given the sidewalk back another metre or two to bring it a bit closer to something acceptable. Instead we have a unnecessarily wide road that gives no more capacity than if it was 2 or 3 metres narrower.

Further down towards Mission, 2nd Street has the same problem as 5th Street in Cliff Bungalow. No signals, no pedestrian bulbs/blinkers or improved-visibility designs and parked cars make crossing by pedestrian or bicycle much more dangerous. Wide unmarked lanes encourage speeding and sloppy lane wandering, at the danger to other road users. Construction closures of sidewalks on the west-side of 2nd Street at 18th Ave, 20-21st Ave further complicate matters.

This is the type of street that should be addressed in the pedestrian strategy, a few small and inexpensive changes can make a world of difference. Even a single traffic light at 21st Ave at 50-50 timing on short intervals would break up the traffic so to reduce speeding.

Bolded is key. An easy, inexpensive fix if timed with renewal and designed according to a pre-standardized pedestrian strategy.

Originally Posted by speedog

The sidewalk on the west side of 2nd Street SW in that block is wider than 1 meter - even Google StreetView shows that. There's even a Smart Fortwo in the picture which is just over 1.5 meters wide and that west sidewalk is obviously wider that that Smart Fortwo.

I think you're missing the point...

2 people could hardly pass each other there without one going onto the road, let alone someone with a wheelchair or stroller.

[speedog]

No, the point is not lost on me. Just keeping check on a bit of exaggeration.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by speedog

No, the point is not lost on me. Just keeping check on a bit of exaggeration.

Kind of like how the lane width is exaggerated beyond any concievable need on this block, right? That's what you meant I'm sure.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Kind of like how the lane width is exaggerated beyond any concievable need on this block, right? That's what you meant I'm sure.

Nope, I just call a spade a spade. One meter is one meter, nothing less, nothing more and apparently people aren't able to comprehend what I meant when I said 'the point was not lost one me'. Considering there are handicapped people in my life, I am all too well aware of the deficiencies that this world's infrastructure provides as obstacles to these same handicapped people. At the same time though, I (and them) are very cognizant of the fact that if we're going to try to bring one of these deficiencies to light, then we can't be bringing inaccurate facts to the table as it doesn't bode well in supporting our cause.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by speedog

Nope, I just call a spade a spade. One meter is one meter, nothing less, nothing more and apparently people aren't able to comprehend what I meant when I said 'the point was not lost one me'. Considering there are handicapped people in my life, I am all too well aware of the deficiencies that this world's infrastructure provides as obstacles to these same handicapped people. At the same time though, I (and them) are very cognizant of the fact that if we're going to try to bring one of these deficiencies to light, then we can't be bringing inaccurate facts to the table as it doesn't bode well in supporting our cause.

So you don't agree that the lane in the picture is wider than a lane needs to be in this specific context? And you also don't agree that that sidewalk is not of sufficient width?

If my facts are inaccurate, perhaps you should offer your own on this specific corner? Surely you've walked it many times at all times of day and night? How does it feel to walk this street? How does it feel for your handicapped friends? Surely you have some facts or at least anecdotes about how many of your friends can't get past the signal pole in the middle of the pedestrian ROW or who won't go down the street in the dark because it is too dark and makes them feel unsafe with poor lighting and visibility while walking?

It's not just about sheer engineering efficiency... The street plainly sucks for most people. While you may casually drive by on the way home to Mahogany, some people actually live in the immediate vicinity. This is a street that is designed with no local context, it was fully ceded to commuter traffic even though it has minimal amounts of it. While there are plenty of examples of how my neighbourhood sacrifices local and resident interests for those living in the distant burbs, this street itself did so completely without the burbs ever requiring or demanding it to be sacrificed.

It never, nor will ever need to be this wide. The sidewalks, however, are so narrow they are inaccessible, unattractive and not equitable based on traffic demand or the needs of residents.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by MasterG

So you don't agree that the lane in the picture is wider than a lane needs to be in this specific context? And you also don't agree that that sidewalk is not of sufficient width?

If my facts are inaccurate, perhaps you should offer your own on this specific corner? Surely you've walked it many times at all times of day and night? How does it feel to walk this street? How does it feel for your handicapped friends? Surely you have some facts or at least anecdotes about how many of your friends can't get past the signal pole in the middle of the pedestrian ROW or who won't go down the street in the dark because it is too dark and makes them feel unsafe with poor lighting and visibility while walking?

It's not just about sheer engineering efficiency... The street plainly sucks for most people. While you may casually drive by on the way home to Mahogany, some people actually live in the immediate vicinity. This is a street that is designed with no local context, it was fully ceded to commuter traffic even though it has minimal amounts of it. While there are plenty of examples of how my neighbourhood sacrifices local and resident interests for those living in the distant burbs, this street itself did so completely without the burbs ever requiring or demanding it to be sacrificed.

It never, nor will ever need to be this wide. The sidewalks, however, are so narrow they are inaccessible, unattractive and not equitable based on traffic demand or the needs of residents.

This is a street whose elements probably date back to the 50's and earlier - there are many factors that no doubt get into the mix when the CoC looks at upgrading infrastructure and myself nor anyone else on this forum probably is half aware of these many factors.

It would be just lovely to live in some utopian world where money grew on trees and at the snap of one's fingers, any little niggling thing would be fixed in an instant. But our reality is much different and in time things will get addressed - I'm not going to get into some ridiculous argument with you over this. The fact remains that there is much more at play here then someone at city hall just waving a magical pen and this or that will get fixed.

BTW, Mahogony - where is that? Good to see you're making such huge assumptions about where I own a home in Calgary and where I spend my time.

[lineman]

Some folk here are the urban equivalent to suburbia, other than sometimes I think suburbia is just trying to get a rise and these folk are too serious. I liked where this this thread was going, but it's now become a bitchfest over the most extreme examples in our city which were a product of generations past.

Fortunately, I've been able to design some posters out of my boarding experience by hitting the ignore button.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by speedog

This is a street whose elements probably date back to the 50's and earlier - there are many factors that no doubt get into the mix when the CoC looks at upgrading infrastructure and myself nor anyone else on this forum probably is half aware of these many factors.

This may be an underestimation of the forum...

Originally Posted by speedog

It would be just lovely to live in some utopian world where money grew on trees and at the snap of one's fingers, any little niggling thing would be fixed in an instant. But our reality is much different and in time things will get addressed - I'm not going to get into some ridiculous argument with you over this. The fact remains that there is much more at play here then someone at city hall just waving a magical pen and this or that will get fixed.

I think the point of the strategy is to determine standards and identify areas in need of improvement. That way at least we know where and how to fix when the street is ready for renewal. It might be worth tackling some of these inexpensive fixes before we commit to interchanges that will cost 1000x as much.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by lineman

... it's now become a bitchfest over the most extreme examples in our city which were a product of generations past.

Fortunately, I've been able to design some posters out of my boarding experience by hitting the ignore button.

Yeah so....That is the reason this sub-forum exists. And only that reason. We screwed up in generations past and this is a repository of all the examples why and where we need to change.

Some may hate the language people use, the pictures people post and the realities they drum up about how this city treats pedestrians in the inner city but people don't need an ignore button.

If you don't want to contribute to the forum of examples of how we can make this city a great one for pedestrians feel free to not post. No one forces you to take the counter-point on here for pro-pedestrian sentiments or ideas. Or start another sub-forum about how cars should be able to travel faster through the beltline.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I think the point of the strategy is to determine standards and identify areas in need of improvement. That way at least we know where and how to fix when the street is ready for renewal. It might be worth tackling some of these inexpensive fixes before we commit to interchanges that will cost 1000x as much.

Maybe the real issue is when a street is ready for renewal - I don't think anyone will argue that that the section of 2nd Street SW couldn't be better. The debate-able element is the timing of such renewal and I am one who firmly believes that there are many factors at play that determines when certain renewals come about, that it is not just as easy as this should be done now come hell or high water.

Hell, on another forum I frequent, people want a new overpass at Dunbow Road and Highway 2A instead of the set of lights that are going to be installed at that intersection - I haven't bothered to comment in that thread because I don't think an overpass is justified at that location and I'd be crucified for saying so. Of course, a lot of the members of that forum live in the burbs and figure that infrastructure should be built out to the max to accommodate their needs now instead of 10 years from now. They complain about vehicular ingress/egress issues in these 2 entrance communities which is the way most suburban communities have been built for the last 20 years - so why bitch about that when it was your choice to live there in the first place? Seeing though as I live in Mahogany...

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by speedog

Maybe the real issue is when a street is ready for renewal - I don't think anyone will argue that that the section of 2nd Street SW couldn't be better. The debate-able element is the timing of such renewal and I am one who firmly believes that there are many factors at play that determines when certain renewals come about, that it is not just as easy as this should be done now come hell or high water.

FYI, every road in the city is on a paving schedule. Over time potholes build up and lines need repainting. The whole street is graded and new asphalt is laid. Sometimes this is done in sync with utilities upgrades. This typically happens every 2-10 years on most roads, depending on needs and resources. Quiet cul-de-sac and suburban crescents would receive treatment less frequently than that, based on 311 complaints of one-off potholes.

That is why we could hypothetically install bikelanes on roads all over the city for almost no cost.

Moving the curb to extend that sidewalk on 2nd St could be done for very little, though given the terrible current state and relative pedestrian demand in the Beltline, we may prefer to plant a few trees or install bike racks or something. We can achieve this for the same price as were to we install an equivalent length of boulevard in a new suburb, so why not? After all, more far more people are expected to walk on 2nd St than on Mahogany Blvd.

[speedog]

Oh, those people that live in Mahogany - they're such shit disturbers.

[bt04ku]

Another pet peeve, the streetlights in the middle of the sidewalk. The two examples I drive by the most would be along Elbow Drive and 17th Ave where the streets have slowly seen upgrading and improvement to the sidewalks, but in some cases there has been road and sidewalk work without moving any of the infrastructure.


The west side of Elbow between 58th and 50th Ave isn't really a big pedestrian street due to the one row of homes between the road and the golf course but the barriers scatter it regardless. Now that they actually connected the sidewalk between Bel-Aire and 58th which had the lamps pushed back to allow better pedestrian access. Having such a stretch of extremely unfriendly sidewalk between some renovated ones is kind of annoying.

On 17th it seems as though the upgrades have stopped at 36A street when we run into the poorly placed wooden lamposts, though these aren't nearly as bad as Elbow since there are less walls and fences that limit space.

I imagine the power lines play a part in this and if they weren't being moved maybe nobody saw the point in spending money to move the lampposts if the power line poles weren't going to be moved any time soon. But with how many times Elbow was being torn up in the past five years you would think somebody would have taken the opportunity to put the lines underground.

[McMahon]

Macleod Trail always bothered me as a pedestrian. Sidewalks between Southland Drive and Anderson Station are practically non-existent, save for a couple of sporadic ones on the east side with one outside an Earls and one outside a Kaltire. The west side is slightly better, though there is still a missing section south of the Superstore. However, after Anderson Stn, there is not a single piece of sidewalk in the rest of the city along that road.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by McMahon

Macleod Trail always bothered me as a pedestrian. Sidewalks between Southland Drive and Anderson Station are practically non-existent, save for a couple of sporadic ones on the east side with one outside an Earls and one outside a Kaltire. The west side is slightly better, though there is still a missing section south of the Superstore. However, after Anderson Stn, there is not a single piece of sidewalk in the rest of the city along that road.

That section of Macleod is where it's speeds generally have been increased and it's really no different than Crowchild Trail along most of it's length which has no continuous sidewalks on either side - most pedestrians wouldn't find walking along side a higher speed roadway very safe in the first place. 16th Ave west of 29th Street NW would be another example - sidewalks are non-existant.

The problem with Macleod is if one wishes to walk northward from South Centre it proves to be a very difficult task and certainly there are no direct routes - north of Southland it's not a problem but by ten one is into much older areas. Maybe it's just part of the suburban design - that is that sidewalks along major roadways aren't required because the prevailing thought is everyone will either take transit or their vehicle. Just try to get from a community on the south side of Fish Creek to the north side - certainly that is not pedestrian friendly.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by McMahon

Macleod Trail always bothered me as a pedestrian. Sidewalks between Southland Drive and Anderson Station are practically non-existent, save for a couple of sporadic ones on the east side with one outside an Earls and one outside a Kaltire. The west side is slightly better, though there is still a missing section south of the Superstore. However, after Anderson Stn, there is not a single piece of sidewalk in the rest of the city along that road.

Macleod is even pretty bad Downtown. Too bad that cycletrack got shot down. Downtown, I think they just start by allowing street parking 24-7. The entire corridor south of Erlton is weird. They probably have the setbacks to do something like this with 3 lanes (one HOV) on either side:

[93JC]

Originally Posted by MasterG

This is a street that is designed with no local context, it was fully ceded to commuter traffic even though it has minimal amounts of it. While there are plenty of examples of how my neighbourhood sacrifices local and resident interests for those living in the distant burbs, this street itself did so completely without the burbs ever requiring or demanding it to be sacrificed.

Ugh, this is why people were calling you the anti-suburbia (the member). If you weren't being so inflammatory, hyperbolic and ignorant there wouldn't have been an issue.

That street wasn't "fully ceded to commuter traffic" and "designed with no local context". The local context changed. When the building on the east side of the street, the Lewis Stationary building, was built in 1910 there was no sidewalk. And the street itself was still just dirt.

The local context at the time was light industrial; warehouses. In fact there was a rail spur line running down what is now the alley in order to facilitate moving all of the goods that passed through those warehouses. The Lewis Stationary building was originally Ashdown Hardware's wholesale warehouse. The Impark lot at the corner of 2nd St and 10th Ave, across the alley, was International Harvester's warehouse. When that street was paved it was still warehouses. The street had to accommodate truck and farm implement traffic, so the street is extra wide.

This wasn't a "screw-up from generations past", it's a remnant of the area's history. You can thank me for the history lesson later.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by 93JC

Ugh, this is why people were calling you the anti-suburbia (the member). If you weren't being so inflammatory, hyperbolic and ignorant there wouldn't have been an issue.

That street wasn't "fully ceded to commuter traffic" and "designed with no local context". The local context changed. When the building on the east side of the street, the Lewis Stationary building, was built in 1910 there was no sidewalk. And the street itself was still just dirt.

The local context at the time was light industrial; warehouses. In fact there was a rail spur line running down what is now the alley in order to facilitate moving all of the goods that passed through those warehouses. The Lewis Stationary building was originally Ashdown Hardware's wholesale warehouse. The Impark lot at the corner of 2nd St and 10th Ave, across the alley, was International Harvester's warehouse. When that street was paved it was still warehouses. The street had to accommodate truck and farm implement traffic, so the street is extra wide.

This wasn't a "screw-up from generations past", it's a remnant of the area's history. You can thank me for the history lesson later.

Never mind, I'll thank you because I like reading about history like you brought to the surface here. Now that's not to say that 2nd Street can't be fixed at some point in time in the future but at least we now all know how that street came to be the way that it currently is.

Anyhow, your little history lesson got me a searching and I stumbled upon this little gem (link) that details some history of a building on 10th Ave less than a block away .

[93JC]

Originally Posted by speedog

Never mind, I'll thank you because I like reading about history like you brought to the surface here. Now that's not to say that 2nd Street can't be fixed at some point in time in the future but at least we now all know how that street came to be the way that it currently is.

Anyhow, your little history lesson got me a searching and I stumbled upon this little gem (link) that details some history of a building on 10th Ave less than a block away .

Truth be told I know a lot about that particular area because I've done a bunch of work throughout the old Wigalo Block.


Similarly a few months ago someone (not here) asked me why the old Mansion space on the corner of 10th and 4th (the soon-to-be opened Rodney's Oyster House) wasn't wheelchair-accessible. "Why is the front door up a few steps? Why is this allowed in Alberta? Isn't this a building code violation?! How could they let the developer get away with this?!"

That building on the corner of 10th and 4th was originally the J.I. Case Threshing Machine Company's building; Case and IH were just down the block from each other. I explained that when the building was built it didn't have steps, the steps were added later because the City changed the grade of 4th Street.

Ca. 1910:


Ca. 1915: