30 for Sunnyside?

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Survivability rates for pedestrians in vehicle collisions go from 95% at 30 to 15% at ~60. I hardly think that raising the speed limits around pedestrians is a right approach. Time to reorder our priorities, Chicago has recently changed from cars first to pedestrians first, then transit, bikes, and cars last. I think this is something that needs to be done ASAP in Calgary, part of this would be changing the default speed limit to 30 unless otherwise signed (most currently signed roads wouldn't need to be changed).

Is back in 2009 ASAP enough for you? (see page 21 of the CTP). Sure, you may not notice, since construction sites still block off top-priority pedestrian routes but not bottom-priority SOV roads. Since we still approve bottom-priority auto-oriented big box malls, without forcing them to put top-priority pedestrians and cyclists on top. Since there are still places without sidewalks for the top-priority pedestrian mode (places in the Beltline, for fuck's sake) and we will allow new communities with incomplete sidewalks, but would never allow them without bottom-priority roads.

But on paper, we totally have made pedestrians the priority.

And I actually agree; why not make 30 the default speed limit? And actually enforce the laws, rather than the ridiculous "everybody does it" approach we use now.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by 93JC

You can't upload the files CPS gave you to Google Drive, Scribd or the like? *wink-wink, nudge-nudge*

Likely to upload it in the next couple months once have reviewed it with a few organizations first. PM me if you have something more specific in mind.

[lubicon]

Maybe I am misunderstanding what is being said, but in Alberta 30 IS the default speed limit in an urban area. 30 MPH (or 50km/h) that is, and this is what I am assuming you mean as 30km/h would be ridiculously low.

[sync]

i always thought the speed limit in a residential area, unless posted otherwise, was 30 kmh.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Maybe I am misunderstanding what is being said, but in Alberta 30 IS the default speed limit in an urban area. 30 MPH (or 50km/h) that is, and this is what I am assuming you mean as 30km/h would be ridiculously low.

Yeah, you're misunderstanding what is being said. You have not, in fact, stumbled onto a wormhole back to a message board from before September 1977, speed limits in Canada are in km/h. 30 km/h does not seem ridiculously low to me on local roads in all residential areas; surely the point is to only drive a short distance on them anyway.

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by sync

i always thought the speed limit in a residential area, unless posted otherwise, was 30 kmh.

It's 50 kmphr within urban areas, though council can prescribe a speed limit higher or lower:
http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/T06.pdf

This is an interesting proposal for a woonerf in Inglewood:

Cyclists and foot traffic to rule Inglewood lane

An idea to transform an Inglewood street giving pedestrians and cyclists priority over motorists would bring a touch of the Netherlands to Calgary. On Monday, city council will be asked to consider allocating some of the $4.6 million from the 2012 Calgary Parking Authority surplus to transform Catherine Avenue into a woonerf - a concept that allows vehicles but limits speeds to walking pace to give walkers and cyclist room to travel.

The Catherine Avenue woonerf proposal would involve the city formalizing a legal lane behind parcels at 8th Avenue S.E. between 12th and 13th streets S.E. A woonerf would serve as the new lane. The plan would create 48 parking spaces, according to a city report. The intent here is to construct these spaces to replace the surface parking lot off of 12th Street S.E. that is currently used for Rouge restaurant. The surface parking lot would be reclaimed to become part of the surrounding river park," the report reads. The idea has support from Inglewood's business revitalization zone. "We're pretty clear our interest is getting people into Inglewood. We put pedestrians and cyclists pretty high. That's a top priority for us," said Rebecca O'Brien of the Inglewood BRZ. "It's a neighbourhood ready to experiment with creative ideas able be open to progressive new levels." The woonerf concept was developed in the Netherlands and is gaining popularity. It is coming closer to reality in downtown Banff. There, town planners have been given the green light to develop design concepts for Bear Street

I've heard much the same comments from many community association presidents in the area. That they are ready to experiment and they place a high value on having spaces within the community which are friendly to pedestrians and cyclists. I could see 8 Ave being converted into a bike lane in a few years with the Elbow River Traverse and this woonerf project...

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald...tml?id=8501700

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Yeah, you're misunderstanding what is being said. You have not, in fact, stumbled onto a wormhole back to a message board from before September 1977, speed limits in Canada are in km/h. 30 km/h does not seem ridiculously low to me on local roads in all residential areas; surely the point is to only drive a short distance on them anyway.

I'm sure that a car driving at 30km/hr doesn't seem ridiculously slow to you... if you are standing still on the sidewalk.

Hell, I have to constantly feather the brake just to get my Jeep to go that slow.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Maybe I am misunderstanding what is being said, but in Alberta 30 IS the default speed limit in an urban area. 30 MPH (or 50km/h) that is, and this is what I am assuming you mean as 30km/h would be ridiculously low.

No I mean 30 km/h

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

I'm sure that a car driving at 30km/hr doesn't seem ridiculously slow to you... if you are standing still on the sidewalk.

Hell, I have to constantly feather the brake just to get my Jeep to go that slow.

I really don't care what you have to do to drive at that speed, I have my skin and bones on the line, as far as I'm concerned I should be able to walk on the sidewalk an not fear being sideswiped by a car. Additionally slower cars generally make less noise, this makes any neighborhood more enjoyable.

[woychukb]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

I really don't care what you have to do to drive at that speed, I have my skin and bones on the line, as far as I'm concerned I should be able to walk on the sidewalk an not fear being sideswiped by a car. Additionally slower cars generally make less noise, this makes any neighborhood more enjoyable.

If you are getting sideswiped while walking down the sidewalk I doubt the driver is going to be too concerned about what the speed limit is.

[93JC]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

I really don't care what you have to do to drive at that speed, I have my skin and bones on the line, as far as I'm concerned I should be able to walk on the sidewalk an not fear being sideswiped by a car.

What does the speed limit have to do with being "sideswiped on the sidewalk"? Vehicles travelling at 30 km/h are less likely to jump the curb and run you down?

[93JC]

Originally Posted by Radley77

Likely to upload it in the next couple months once have reviewed it with a few organizations first. PM me if you have something more specific in mind.

Oh I was just curious about a few neighbourhoods. I have no idea what format the cops gave the data in, I was just hoping that the raw data itself (minus your analyses) would be pretty easy to upload.

It's no biggie.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by woychukb

If you are getting sideswiped while walking down the sidewalk I doubt the driver is going to be too concerned about what the speed limit is.

Originally Posted by 93JC

What does the speed limit have to do with being "sideswiped on the sidewalk"? Vehicles travelling at 30 km/h are less likely to jump the curb and run you down?

A car @ 50+km/h <2 feet away is a scary thing. 30km/h would help significantly.

My peve comes from the 11th/12th couplet it's rare that the cars in the curb lane are at speed limit, generally they are 5-10k over the limit when I'm stand on the corner. Additionaly many drivers also have little idea how wide their vehicles are and come dangerously close to the curb and by proxy me.

Three factors are a play here
1 - A 30k car is less likely to jump the curb
2 - A 30k car has as significantly shorter stopping distance (link)
3 - I'm far more likely to survive the 30k car collision than a 50-60k car collision (32k - 95%, 48k - 55-63%, 64k - 15-17%)(source)

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

I really don't care what you have to do to drive at that speed, I have my skin and bones on the line, as far as I'm concerned

With cars moving at 50km/hr? No you don't.

I should be able to walk on the sidewalk an not fear being sideswiped by a car.

This isn't even a real problem.

Additionally slower cars generally make less noise, this makes any neighborhood more enjoyable.

Also not a real problem.

[Calgarian]

So people are less likely to get hurt by a car going 30 than 50, they would also be less likely to be hurt if we mandate helmets and bubble wrap suits when walking down the oh so dangerous sidewalks in our city.

[RyLucky]

If cars obey the rules and drive under 2500rpm, it's nearly impossible to get above 30 in sunnyside. First ave has stop signs at every block, passes a playground, and goes nowhere (ends at Ctrain). Second is the main drag, has 2 major 4way stops, and passes through the same playground zone. Third ave has passes through a different playground zone, has stop signs nearly every block, and like first ave, ends at the tracks. Fourth ave is only a couple blocks long and is more narrow than the others.

Streets: 3 through 6 are no longer than two blocks, and there is a stop sign at 2nd ave for those that cross it. 5a, 7, and 8 go through playground zones.

One thing that makes sunnyside a great place to live is that it already is a slow community that makes almost no sense to cut through.

As for the argument over the functionality of playground zones, I think slowing to 30 one of those things that realistically has only a minor effect on safety, but the consequence of an accident with a child would be so devastating that that it's worth the slight inconvenience of slowi down even if it is only a courtesy.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

If cars obey the rules and drive under 2500rpm, it's nearly impossible to get above 30 in sunnyside. First ave has stop signs at every block, passes a playground, and goes nowhere (ends at Ctrain). Second is the main drag, has 2 major 4way stops, and passes through the same playground zone. Third ave has passes through a different playground zone, has stop signs nearly every block, and like first ave, ends at the tracks. Fourth ave is only a couple blocks long and is more narrow than the others.

Streets: 3 through 6 are no longer than two blocks, and there is a stop sign at 2nd ave for those that cross it. 5a, 7, and 8 go through playground zones.

One thing that makes sunnyside a great place to live is that it already is a slow community that makes almost no sense to cut through.

As for the argument over the functionality of playground zones, I think slowing to 30 one of those things that realistically has only a minor effect on safety, but the consequence of an accident with a child would be so devastating that that it's worth the slight inconvenience of slowi down even if it is only a courtesy.

Agreed about Sunnyside. This whole thing is a non-issue for that neighourhood. There are literally no problems with speed, traffic, or lack of pedestrian friendliness (except the aforementioned crossing Memorial by the Peace Bridge).



I am fine if playground zones address a legitimate safety issue. But fenced off schools set back from the road in the suburbs where parents drive the kids to school anyways? Its a waste of time and effort to police and develop.


The main problem I have is that it safety is being used disingenuously. See Elbow Drive between 4th Street and the Elbow River. Rich, powerful community association and members asked for that to be put in for the sake of "safety". Yeah right. It exists completely for the properties on the road to reduce the noise of traffic on their doorsteps. The rest of the community supports it because traffic is reduced. Its not fair that Elbow gets a slower speed, while 5th Street SW doesn't even though it has more pedestrians, accidents and conflicts between cars and other users of the road.

Using the safety of children as an argument to protect property from noise (again 40km/h noise, not Deerfoot) and traffic (again Elbow Drive, not a country club's driveway) is simply wrong.

These communities should be allowed to lobby for reducing speeds, but call it what it is. 30km/h to protect my property value and so that I don't have to deal with as much traffic when I leave my $2 million house in the inner city.

Imagine if every neighbourhood had the clout and power to do that, the city would be in gridlock.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Three factors are a play here
1 - A 30k car is less likely to jump the curb
2 - A 30k car has as significantly shorter stopping distance (link)
3 - I'm far more likely to survive the 30k car collision than a 50-60k car collision (32k - 95%, 48k - 55-63%, 64k - 15-17%)(source)

4 - A 30k car is more likely to sneak up on me, because it is quieter and thus reducing my reaction time to get out of the way.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

With cars moving at 50km/hr? No you don't.

This isn't even a real problem.

Also not a real problem.

I hardly think you have the authority or the knowledge of my situation to determine what I think is a real problem

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

4 - A 30k car is more likely to sneak up on me, because it is quieter and thus reducing my reaction time to get out of the way.

Ha!