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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2012, 7:44 PM
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Doesn't it just come down to passenger load and role?

Think the Bloor subway line in toronto, with stops 6-10 min walks apart. Currently it's a subway, and someone could argue that it is acting like a streetcar with those close stops, but what they'd really be saying is that it's mimicking the stop frequency of a street car.

It seems to me that the proper tool for the job of any transit line should be obvious:
1) stop frequency based upon what role you want it to have: commuter line (one stop per community), express line (only a few stops per community), regular line (a stop every couple or few blocks
2) passenger load: shuttle sized, regular sized, articulated sized, LRT, subway

And then within 2, bus vs streetcar is just a judgement call between whether you wish to trade vehicle longevity and enhanced ride with lack of flexibility.
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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2012, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by craner View Post
Yes . . . I think they would have.

My biggest peeve with the plan is the lack of priority given to getting the LRT underground downtown. This should have been done yesterday.
And get it all underground downtown (i.e. don't build a tunnel and still keep the 7th Ave transit corridor).
I like 7th Ave. It's bright, safe, accessible, open, well integrated with the city. The only problem is that trains can never be longer than a block if they are at grade. That, and interlining (I hate that word).
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2012, 5:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
Light Rail ≠ Street Cars ≠ Subways ≠ Commuter Rail. If Portland starts interlining their Skoda streetcars on Trimax we can revisit the issue.

This is not ambiguous language.

If you have spent millions of dollars building a light rail system serving an urban corridor with ridership that could easily be accommodated by 40ft buses, you have a failure on your hands.

Pittsburgh spent half a billion dollars (1980's dollars), including federal funding to replace the street car system with LRV's and on grade separation. With their ~40 kilometres of track their daily ridership is less than 30,000.

People might feel nostalgic about street cars, but very often buses and buses alone were the correct answer going forward. Would the C-Train have had the same affect (or any at all) on Calgary if the first two routes were doodling around the general contours of the old Grand Trunk and South Calgary street car routes? Calgary got rid of the street cars and trolley buses because they were just too much of a frustration relative to diesel buses.

If some people just don't like buses, that is just too bad. Every situation needs to be evaluated on whether the net improvement in service provided to a community by introducing rail transit justifies the cost or if the said community can even rightfully support the service in the first place.

I'm well aware that they do not equal each other. My point was that the clarification needs to come from, well, your side as to what is the determining characteristic that does not make them equate - which is largely the ROW. You can put exactly the same technology in mixed traffic and in a subway and they are for the most part, doing a much different thing. Thus, an LRV on steel rail in the street and one on an elevated guideway are both light rail technologically, but they aren't really both light rail tactically. Your example has cleared that up though.

I agree (again?) with your last paragraph, I just don't understand how that would entail that street car systems are inherently unsuccessful. Sure some might be, but that can be the case for any system. Furthermore, we've basically been looking at it from (and to perhaps bring diesel buses back into the equation) a simplified user demand side perspective and haven't so much thought about operational costs per paxkm or any other extranalities brought about - noise, local pollution, aesthetics etc. I'm not trying to play favourites or derate buses, as they play just as important of role in a system (ie. a Ctrain- bus system), but when directly tangible and short-run costs are the only thing considered, buses generally look favourable.


Anyway, to the RouteAhead plan: I feel that from the presentation perspective, and thereby the information it's trying to convey, that placing the proposed network topograpichally would help in the discussion. It might help eliminate some otherwise fairly inconsequential questions as to what street a proposed route is on for example, as this would then be shown. As a planning tool, and not a non-convoluted network map meant for users, it would make evaluation a bit easier. Perhaps in the final version?
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2012, 5:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
I like 7th Ave. It's bright, safe, accessible, open, well integrated with the city. The only problem is that trains can never be longer than a block if they are at grade. That, and interlining (I hate that word).
It does contribute significantly to traffic congestion during rush hour. I avoid having to drive north-south through downtown during during peak times. Before all the urban purists say they don't care, I will point out that the short headways on 7th impede full vehicle utilization on N-S streets, which is inefficient.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2012, 5:32 AM
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Yes, that's a big challenge. Part of the purpose of the plan was so that the Provincial and Federal governments actually understand what the City's vision is, what its long terms needs are, what projects are priorities, and how much it's going to cost. It's impossible to get an adequate funding arrangement without it.

Calgary's also just entering MGA/City Charter discussions right now, so this plan I'm sure will be front and centre. Municipalities are responsible for transit service, but they need the fiscal capacity to actually deliver it. Transit capital more than anything else is way beyond the fiscal capacity of cities under current revenue allocation. I'm also hopeful that when the two major ring roads are done that priorities at the province will shift from highway building to LRT construction - there are many reasons to do so.
I have stated before that City Charters are a very bad idea. I lived it in the US and it is horrible: municipalities constantly trying to steal revenue and push costs to and from each other. Regional planning completely breaks down. Think we are down to the only ways to pay for transit are significantly higher fares (ex. $6 during rush hour), significantly higher fuel taxes (ex. extra 25 cents per litre) and progressive car registration fees (ex. $150 per year to register first vehicle, $500 for second, $1,000 for third).

Higher fees will do more than just raise revenue, they may even destroy some demand as people internalize the cost of mobility.

Last edited by Doug; Sep 23, 2012 at 4:06 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2012, 7:58 AM
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I just don't understand how that would entail that street car systems are inherently unsuccessful.
I didn't say street car systems were inherently unsuccessful, I said the least successful light rail systems are those that emulate street cars. In most cases the appropriate replacement for a street car was not light rail but a bus.
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2012, 1:08 AM
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But it is also a bus only road that can be converted easily to rail.
Not if they design the transitways like the ones in Ottawa, they won't be.

The transitways were supposed to have been conceived as technology-neutral fully grade-separated transit rights-of-way. In some ways, they were supposed to be metro-like. But what happened in reality is that they became largely grade-separated busways. The distinction might seem minor, but it is telling too.

A busway is literally a bus-only road. It may or may not be fully grade separated (in that sense, it is the bus equivalent of a light rail line). As a bus-only road, it is designed like a road (in fact, a highway) by road engineers but with a few bus transit features, notably at stations.

A transitway, even one that starts out as a bus transitway, should still be designed in a way to facilitate conversion to some other form of transit, be it light rail or metro (indeed, the rough rail equivalent of a bus transitway is a light metro line, like Vancouver's Sky Train). But Ottawa's transitways were not truly designed as transitways - they were designed as grade separated busways.

The upshot is that conversion of the bus transitways to a rail transitway has not been thought through. For instance, when you convert, do you rip up the asphalt or lay ballast and tracks directly on top of the asphalt? With the latter, bridge clearances may become an issue where with the former they wouldn't be, but in the former any drainage lines could become an issue. Ottawa has both problems. Similarly, where do the supports for the overhead electrical supply go? It's much easier to design that in at the time of initial design and construction than decades later. Stations in particular are an issue for conversion due to issues like differing platform heights between bus and rail and the previous issue of build on top or rip up. Another issue with stations is that typical busway station designs are relatively short in length but are four lanes wide with another two lanes' worth of platforms either side, plus whatever elevators and stairwells may be needed, whereas rail stations are typically much longer but also narrower, and may even use a central platform. A true transitway built-out initially for buses would likely employ a staggered station design to keep it narrower that could be lengthened when converted to rail. Or it may even go so far as to consider contraflowing buses separated by a median with preplanned supports for future electrical - think light standards in the meantime - and median stations.


Be very careful with being sold on transitways that can supposedly be converted "easily". Unless Calgary makes sure that it doesn't just copy and paste Ottawa's bus transitways (and York Region's and Brisbane's amongst others), it will just be copying and pasting Ottawa's current problems a generation into the future.
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2012, 6:26 PM
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It is really nice to see the City creating this type of document and plan that will provide necessary direction and guidance. Also, it is encouraging that they are collecting the input of user experts. Nevertheless, there are a few questionable decisions in the plan and a couple exceptions that I find concerning.

In my opinion, I think that the 8th Avenue Subway is one of the system's most pressing needs and if it was to be re-prioritized it should have been brought forward rather than pushed back. Overcrowding is likely to become an issue in the near future and by adding extensions before routing the Red Line underground this issue will only be amplified. Consequently, I don't believe that we can even consider extending the Blue and Red lines before taking the Red line underground.

Although Josh has informed us that the timeline focuses on Rapid Transit lines, it would be nice to see the other new services and service improvements (i.e. Quantity of Service) that they have in store, as well as, their priority. Nenshi talks about how public transport is s crucial element in cities and I would like to see how the City intends on enabling public transportation to adequately be a primary mode of transportation for both captive and choice riders. What are they going to do to ensure the level of service makes transit convenient, easy, and quick for a wide variety of trips?

In a similar vein, I am also interested to see their emphasis and focus on improving their Quality of Service. I think Calgary Transit tends to focus on quantitative matters and neglects matters of quality. However, these can be very important in making transit convenient and easy to use. For instance, a bridge linking the two platforms at City Hall would improve the ease, speed, and safety of making a connection. Other less obvious and expensive yet very helpful improvements would be things like informative bus poles and better placed/positioned information boards/displays.
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  #89  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2012, 2:12 PM
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Our newest blog post on comparing our Transit Camp plan to the Route Ahead plan:

http://transitcamp.ca/2012/10/04/the...-network-plan/
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  #90  
Old Posted Oct 4, 2012, 2:56 PM
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What is thankful is that for all the arguments about phasing, arguments over routes are fairly minimal - that is a huge success and we owe a debt of gratitude to planners and council from the 60s forward.
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2013, 1:30 AM
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While I do understand some of the sentiment about extending the LRT far from the centre of the city, I really don't think Route Ahead does that at all. There is a huge focus on crosstown routes and routes serving trips that are not just "suburbanites going downtown." There is a lot of improved service for the inner city.

Take the North Crosstown for example. The line runs east/west on 16th avenue, connecting several schools and hospitals to inner city neighbourhoods (everything around 16th avenue) and other transit lines. It definitely does not extend far out in the city. The south crosstown route does the same, connecting a university and a hospital to existing transit lines and inner city neighbourhoods (Killarney/Glenbrook/Glanmorgan, Chinook Park/Kingsland/Haysboro). The transitway for 17th Avenue SE creates better transit for Greater Forest Lawn, as do improvements on the 305 create better transit for Bowness/Montgomery/Parkdale/Hillhurst.

Also note the phasing of the SE/NC LRT. It goes to Quarry Park first, then to 16th Avenue, before going to the south hospital or northpointe. This is a massive change from Calgary Transit's previous strategy to get the LRTs out as far and fast as possible. The core of the line is built first, and then extended. That is a massive shift in priority.

I think it is a fantastic plan.
Agree strongly with this comment. I think Calgary needs to pay more attention to ensuring that public transit infrastructure is ready for ever higher density in the city core. After all, that is the direction the rest of our urban planning is pushing. The SE/NC LRT project should, to my mind, be grade separated from day one from the beltline to 16 Av N, and a dual underground station at 2nd street and 8th Av should be built for both the SE/NC line and the ultimate grade separation of the NW/South line.
When planning this kind of long term infrastructure, we need to be thinking of a Calgary with a population of at least 2.5 million, not the Calgary of today.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 5:50 AM
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I really don't feel like looking back thru all these pages so I'll just ask................what kind, if any, transit service is there for commuters outside the city limits? Naturally I'm thinking of the 4 major urban areas od Airdrie, Chestmere, Okotoks, and Cochrane. Is there any kind of public transit connecting those cities with downtown Calgary or even the nearest LRT station? If not are there any plans to do so or what about commuter rail. Calgary's downtown station has almost no VIA service to speak of so I can't imagine capacity there would be an issue.

I was going to ask this at the Regional Calgary Transit thread but I noticed that it's last entry was nearly a year ago so I didn't think anybody would notice.
Thanks
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 6:13 AM
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 6:30 AM
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Regional Transit for the most part was outside of the scope of Routeahead though provisions for regional linkages were included in the report as informed by the Calgary Regional Transit Plan which is in its infancy of being implimented.

If you're interested heres more Information
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 5:11 PM
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Anyone know how the Vancouver area's TransLink or Toronto area's Metrolinx got started?
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 5:26 PM
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Provincial law.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I really don't feel like looking back thru all these pages so I'll just ask................what kind, if any, transit service is there for commuters outside the city limits? Naturally I'm thinking of the 4 major urban areas od Airdrie, Chestmere, Okotoks, and Cochrane. Is there any kind of public transit connecting those cities with downtown Calgary or even the nearest LRT station? If not are there any plans to do so or what about commuter rail. Calgary's downtown station has almost no VIA service to speak of so I can't imagine capacity there would be an issue.

I was going to ask this at the Regional Calgary Transit thread but I noticed that it's last entry was nearly a year ago so I didn't think anybody would notice.
Thanks
The Calgary Regional Partnership's transit plan has good details of all of the regional transit as of late 2009 (summary on pages 9 and 10). The big addition I'm aware of since that report is the ICE service to and from Airdrie. A High River shuttle also exists now.

The biggest six cities/towns in the region (the four you identified, plus Strathmore and High River) all have daily commuter transit service, as do Langdon, Crossfield, Didsbury and Carstairs.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 7:58 PM
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Thanks for the info.

I actually knew of the firststudent system but at the prices thay charge it didn't seem very "public" to me. Does the ticket purchased is it transferable to the local transit system or Calgary Transit or is it strickly a private enterprise affair?
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2013, 8:22 PM
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Cant wait to see what the city and people decide on for the future routes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Our newest blog post on comparing our Transit Camp plan to the Route Ahead plan:

http://transitcamp.ca/2012/10/04/the...-network-plan/
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 10, 2013, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
Anyone know how the Vancouver area's TransLink or Toronto area's Metrolinx got started?
Provincial Law as MalcolmTucker stated, plus BC puts a large "transit tax" on all gas purchases.

It's a real bitch for people who require a car to do their jobs and don't get reimbursed for it (such as my ex, an RCMP officer)... he obviously got reimbursed with his work car, but not personal which is his only way to get to work.
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