Calgary's $8 BILLION Transit Plan - The RouteAhead

[Ferreth]

A few comments:

"Hubalta Rd" transfer - where is that intended? The actual Hubalta Rd is a side street that parallels the CN rail. It meets 17th Ave SE EAST of 52nd St. The Connection point is more along the 36th St. line.

There is an unlabeled Connection on the north line - intended for Airport connection?

Why switch to BRT for one stop from Keystone to Northpointe? I'd think people would not like the two transfer possibility to get downtown from the end point if LRT is not extended to the end of the city. Similar for 17th Ave SE, although that could be a BRT moving onto a transitway without any transfer required.

I would concur with others who have stated that hopefully some priority will be given to the inner city as well. The lack of priority for 8th Ave subway suggests otherwise at this point. If TOD development is to work, you actually have to be able to get on the LRT when you need to go to work - something that is getting harder all the time for anyone closer into the core. 4 car trains will help (should have come before the current line extensions) but I think 8th Ave subway and the frequency increases possible with it will be required in the 30 year time frame to accommodate TOD increased use AND expansions further out.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Why switch to BRT for one stop from Keystone to Northpointe?

Northpointe has been built up for pushing 20 years now, and the population is very much geared towards LRT usage (very heavy BRT usage). Keystone is a field of prairie grass *beyond* Stoney trail. It would be inappropriate to build out to it, including a massively expensive bridge over stoney, within the next 40 years.

I would concur with others who have stated that hopefully some priority will be given to the inner city as well.

Your push to keystone seems counter-intuitive to this latter comment. You can't balance out expensive additional extensions with massive bridges, with the addition of an expensive tunnel at the same time. Arithmetic doesn't work that way.

It could easily be argued that connecting the inner city is why we have so many spokes to the core, so am happy there is some attention being placed on the silent majority with the addition of cross-town links.

[ByeByeBaby]

Here are a few specific concerns I've come up with:
Putting the south-central hub at Heritage station rather than Chinook. I know it's easier for CT, and it may reduce travel times slightly -- although Google maps suggests otherwise -- but the clear urban node in south-central Calgary is Chinook. The Heritage TOD plan has 435K sq. ft. of space. The Chinook plan supports 7,900K sq. ft. of space -- and that's not including the mall (the largest retail node in Calgary) which has 1300K sq ft and is talking about adding another 1000K. It makes no sense to put the major east-west connection in the south one stop away from the largest node in the area. (For comparison, a built out Chinook TOD + expanded mall would have twice the floorspace of the airport, Mount Royal University and South Health Campus... combined.)

No east-west connections in the northwest. The radial lines shown go 10-14 km out from downtown, but the only major connection between them is 16th Ave, which is 2-4 km from downtown. And the 16th Ave connector isn't much; just a limited-stop bus. The same is true in the far south.

SW BRT does not connect to 52nd St E BRT. Surely some of the jobs in the SE industrial area are held by people from west of the Deerfoot, yet there is no connection made here.

8th Ave Subway deprioritized. I've played devil's advocate on this one, but this is one of the most important projects in terms of maintaining capacity. I think a big master plan like this one needs to shuffle the less sexy projects forward on the timeline, because nobody will care about this plan in 30 years when it's time to build the thing -- just like we don't care about the studies from the 80s. There will always be a constituency for expanding to another suburban lobe or adding a good crosstown service, but the 8th Ave subway doesn't have that constituency -- putting it in with all of the other lines will build that support, but once the other services get built, this support will evaporate. It needs to get built soon.

Phasing/design of NCLRT. The plan shows a "transitway to 78th Ave". That means surface running transit has been chosen -- the point of a transitway as precursor to LRT is that it's easy to change over, and we don't have the electric buses you would need for tunnel operations. Very subtle way of determining the technology before even determining the corridor.

[floobie]

Originally Posted by 93JC

Supposedly. I'm very skeptical about how well this can actually be executed.



Yup. Seems ridiculous to me that extensions to the northeast, northwest, southeast and south are, according to the plan, to be built well before any substantial transit improvements in the inner city. It's just going to get worse for inner city transit users.



It's ludricrous to me that "the plan" is to build LRT stations in Seton, at 210 Ave S, at 'Northpointe' (wherever the hell that is) and to other far-flung locales that might as well be Bumfuck, Nowhere as far as I'm concerned, while someone living in Altadore has to dick around on a 45 min. long ride on the #7 or #13 bus if they want to take transit downtown.

This about sums it up for me. The specifics can always be argued (I'm sure the case can be made for some extensions)... but, I'm definitely of the opinion that the existing lines are generally long enough, and that improving inner city service should take priority for a while. Is someone in the new, deep south/far north community of Eagleglenfalconview Castle Pointe on the Greene really going to be taking transit? Is it really reasonable of them to move to the middle of nowhere and expect stellar transit service? The existing network in the "inner city" (I'm using the term fairly loosely), has some rather gaping holes in it. And, indeed, the 8th avenue subway really needs to happen.

As for the rest... I'm not fully convinced on the transitway idea. It seems like the kind of idea where people say "Ok, we ultimately want LRT or something here. Let's build a dedicated road thingie for it first, then build the tracks later"... but then they never actually build the tracks later.

[red-paladin]

What is the 'other technology' for the campus line? (I'm from Vancouver, and haven't heard about it) Are we talking some kind of small system like trams, people mover, or even monorails that you see at a large airport?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Here are a few specific concerns I've come up with:
Putting the south-central hub at Heritage station rather than Chinook. I know it's easier for CT, and it may reduce travel times slightly -- although Google maps suggests otherwise -- but the clear urban node in south-central Calgary is Chinook. The Heritage TOD plan has 435K sq. ft. of space. The Chinook plan supports 7,900K sq. ft. of space -- and that's not including the mall (the largest retail node in Calgary) which has 1300K sq ft and is talking about adding another 1000K. It makes no sense to put the major east-west connection in the south one stop away from the largest node in the area. (For comparison, a built out Chinook TOD + expanded mall would have twice the floorspace of the airport, Mount Royal University and South Health Campus... combined.)

I've thought about this one too. Going to Chinook is incredibly hard because there is no road connection east or west that goes anywhere without using Glenmore. As well, going to Chinook misses Rockyview Hospital completely. Large developments can be served as non-transfer stations. Requiring one transfer from the SW BRT to get to Chinook isn't as bad as completely missing Rockyview Hospital or having nowhere to go after getting to Chinook. The decision is less about importance than it is about geography.

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

No east-west connections in the northwest. The radial lines shown go 10-14 km out from downtown, but the only major connection between them is 16th Ave, which is 2-4 km from downtown. And the 16th Ave connector isn't much; just a limited-stop bus. The same is true in the far south.

Agreed partially. In reality, Nose Hill prevents any connector north of John Laurie (which may be an option). I think a connection between the NW line and NC line north of Nose Hill is an option, as is a E/W connection slightly north of 16th, using a Northmount/40th/32nd alignment. That would be more of a limited stop service than dedicated lanes.

Plus, I think the 16th avenue corridor could very well see something more than limited stop service. I mean 3 hospitals and 2 post secondaries is nothing to sneeze at.

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

SW BRT does not connect to 52nd St E BRT. Surely some of the jobs in the SE industrial area are held by people from west of the Deerfoot, yet there is no connection made here.

Agreed 100%. I think the 52nd ST E BRT should go to Quarry Park. Sure it requires a transfer to NE residents going to the South Hospital, but it makes that crucial connection for both people west of Deerfoot going to Foothills Industrial and those in the NE going to Quarry Park.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

What is the 'other technology' for the campus line? (I'm from Vancouver, and haven't heard about it) Are we talking some kind of small system like trams, people mover, or even monorails that you see at a large airport?

I'm calling Gondola.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by floobie

This about sums it up for me. The specifics can always be argued (I'm sure the case can be made for some extensions)... but, I'm definitely of the opinion that the existing lines are generally long enough, and that improving inner city service should take priority for a while. Is someone in the new, deep south/far north community of Eagleglenfalconview Castle Pointe on the Greene really going to be taking transit? Is it really reasonable of them to move to the middle of nowhere and expect stellar transit service? The existing network in the "inner city" (I'm using the term fairly loosely), has some rather gaping holes in it. And, indeed, the 8th avenue subway really needs to happen.

As for the rest... I'm not fully convinced on the transitway idea. It seems like the kind of idea where people say "Ok, we ultimately want LRT or something here. Let's build a dedicated road thingie for it first, then build the tracks later"... but then they never actually build the tracks later.

To the bolded part, yes. It is people living in the new suburbs commuting into downtown on the train (or the multiple buses on Centre Street)that have helped make the C-Train one of the most successful LRT's in North America.

[Policy Wonk]

Is one to interpret the Airport Rail is not necessarily LRT? It is red, but every other plotted line is described as LRT while it is described as "rail"

And naturally... if it is LRT will it interline with the NE LRT? (smirk)

[93JC]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

It is people living in the new suburbs commuting into downtown on the train (or the multiple buses on Centre Street)that have helped make the C-Train one of the most successful LRT's in North America.

Of course they (suburbanites) are the ones who've "made the C-train successful": they're the ones with most of the C-train infrastructure.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

Here are a few specific concerns I've come up with:
Putting the south-central hub at Heritage station rather than Chinook. I know it's easier for CT, and it may reduce travel times slightly -- although Google maps suggests otherwise -- but the clear urban node in south-central Calgary is Chinook. The Heritage TOD plan has 435K sq. ft. of space. The Chinook plan supports 7,900K sq. ft. of space -- and that's not including the mall (the largest retail node in Calgary) which has 1300K sq ft and is talking about adding another 1000K. It makes no sense to put the major east-west connection in the south one stop away from the largest node in the area. (For comparison, a built out Chinook TOD + expanded mall would have twice the floorspace of the airport, Mount Royal University and South Health Campus... combined.)

No east-west connections in the northwest. The radial lines shown go 10-14 km out from downtown, but the only major connection between them is 16th Ave, which is 2-4 km from downtown. And the 16th Ave connector isn't much; just a limited-stop bus. The same is true in the far south.

SW BRT does not connect to 52nd St E BRT. Surely some of the jobs in the SE industrial area are held by people from west of the Deerfoot, yet there is no connection made here.

8th Ave Subway deprioritized. I've played devil's advocate on this one, but this is one of the most important projects in terms of maintaining capacity. I think a big master plan like this one needs to shuffle the less sexy projects forward on the timeline, because nobody will care about this plan in 30 years when it's time to build the thing -- just like we don't care about the studies from the 80s. There will always be a constituency for expanding to another suburban lobe or adding a good crosstown service, but the 8th Ave subway doesn't have that constituency -- putting it in with all of the other lines will build that support, but once the other services get built, this support will evaporate. It needs to get built soon.

Phasing/design of NCLRT. The plan shows a "transitway to 78th Ave". That means surface running transit has been chosen -- the point of a transitway as precursor to LRT is that it's easy to change over, and we don't have the electric buses you would need for tunnel operations. Very subtle way of determining the technology before even determining the corridor.

I agree with all of your points to various degrees but especially with the 8 Ave Subway. If anything the apparent timetable makes sense for a building a subway downtown, underneath 7 Ave for the W-NE line. I think it is dangerously unrealistic for the city to assume that 7 Ave will still function fine in the 2020-2025 timeframe let alone between 2035-2040.

We'd be lucky to see a 25% boost to capacity from 4 car trains (they take longer to clear intersections and there are simply too many trains today). That extra space could evaporate very quickly.

Edit: C-Train ridership spiked by nearly 33% between quarter 4 of 2006, with 206 900 weekday, and quarter 4 of 2007, with 271 100 weekday rides. That is how fast 4 car trains can become overburdened. The city needs to figure out how to get the 8 Ave subway built by 2020.

[RyLucky]

Good points ByeByeBaby. I also agree with all points to various degrees. One station on each radial line must be selected as a cross-town hub, and selection of the line needs to be based on where travelers are destined, growth potential, and potential for crosstown ROW. These are:
S-Chinook
W-Westbrook
NW-U of C
NE-PLC/Sunridge/Rundle
Hubs on the NC and SELRT are less clear at this time, and although ostensibly 16th Ave/Ctr St N and Quarry Park, respectively, could probably be somewhere esle if it suited crosstown alignment.

I agree here too:

Originally Posted by polishavenger

I think the 800 lb gorrilla in the room that nobody is addressing is that regardless of the fact that you add a 4th car to the train and run them every 5 minutes, without an express system, you have major inefficiency in the system. Since the vast majority of people along the entire systems are heading to the core, the further this city sprawls, the faster and faster the trains fill up rendering them useless to commuters closer to the core.

One major thing that was not included in the plan was any form of regional rail or express system, whether LRT, transitway, or commuter heavy rail. We are a city with all stoptreins and no sneltreins. The limitations of the C-train are choking growth, and even 5-car trains and a Stephen Ave Metro will not work at alleviating congestion forever. What we need in a sneltrein option that follows existing rail ROW and converges downtown with an HSR station. For example:
High-River-Okotoks-Somerset-Anderson-CHINOOK-DT
Airdrie-Balzac-Airport Trail-Greenview-DT
Strathmore-Langdon-Southhill-DT
Banff-Canmore-Cochrane-Bowness-DT

I'm not saying all lines and regional rail stations need to necessarily be built all at once, but flexibility and accommodation are key. These also need to stop at crosstown hubs, which in the south are Chinook, Anderson, and Somerset. Rush hour express service from downtown to those three stations would already be popular if implemented today. People come from all over the region to visit Chinook and Southcentre, not Heritage.

[fusili]

The latest TransitCamp Blog- Some thoughts on the Route Ahead Plan:

http://transitcamp.ca/2012/09/20/the...some-thoughts/

[Wooster]

^ Good analysis. I tend to agree with you about the Airport line. We noted the same thing in the draft so you'll see there is a bit of a dashed line emanating west from the airport. They presume that a rail link to the west will be needed, but that second phase may be outside the 30yr timeframe. I think it should just be part of the plan. It could be an important connection from north-central to the airport and all the other employment in the area.

On the deep south crosstown - I believe their thinking on this was as you suspected. An important link, but not in need of rapid transit infratructure. It could simply be an express bus - there will be a lot of vehicle capacity there with the south ring road.

[RyLucky]

Here's how I would have done Route Ahead (for free and in 20 minutes):



It's more like a $15B plan. BAM.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by 93JC

Of course they (suburbanites) are the ones who've "made the C-train successful": they're the ones with most of the C-train infrastructure.

They have the most C-Train infrastructure because the light-rail systems that do little more than ape old urban street car routes are not terribly successful.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

They have the most C-Train infrastructure because the light-rail systems that do little more than ape old urban street car routes are not terribly successful.

I don't know. The TTC streetcar system seems to be fairly well used. I only have experienced this as a visitor, but everyone I know who lived in downtown Toronto swears by it.

[93JC]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

They have the most C-Train infrastructure because the light-rail systems that do little more than ape old urban street car routes are not terribly successful.

I didn't say that the C-Train should ape the old street car routes.

The point is that to say the C-Train's success is due to suburban commuters taking it downtown is blantantly obvious. Of course it is: those are the only people the LRT system serves.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, to be frank most of Calgary is suburbs...

[93JC]

I wonder if those suburbs would have grown like they did if they didn't have an LRT station in the area...

(or the 'promise' of LRT in the future)